North Coast Hiawatha - Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority (BSPRA)

In regards to operating a "stub-end" service, getting the train to Spokane would merely allow for a crew base and servicing area for this train (rather than having it intersect with the Empire Builder say at Whitefish or somewhere in Northwest Montana). So that's more out of convenience for Amtrak to get it to Spokane. Secondly, the idea I had would be to operate it with Superliners so you could interchange the cars with the Empire Builder with its current schedule (cars swapped in/out at Spokane along with the Portland and Seattle sections etc.). Yes there'd be early morning arrivals but I wouldn't mess with the current schedule of the Empire Builder.

jp1822 wrote:In regards to operating a "stub-end" service, getting the train to Spokane would merely allow for a crew base and servicing area for this train (rather than having it intersect with the Empire Builder say at Whitefish or somewhere in Northwest Montana). So that's more out of convenience for Amtrak to get it to Spokane.

Getting the NCH to Spokane isn't just convenient, it's pretty much necessary to connect with Empire Builder. The connection has to be made in either Spokane or Sandpoint. The lines have already diverged by the time they cross into Montana.

Parallel topic, please take discussion here.
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 46&t=65981

The Montana Rail Association met with the governor to urge him to support their ideas to expand train travel in the western United States.
http://www.kfbb.com/news/local/92723649.html

I haven't heard of the Montana Rail Association before. However, here it a link to the passenger rail portion of the 2009 Montana State Rail Plan.
http://www.mdt.mt.gov/pubinvolve/docs/r ... _sect4.pdf

Safe assumption that Montana Rail Association is one more, and likely ad hoc, passenger advocacy group.

delvyrails wrote:That would suggest that the reported Sunset Limited remnant between San Antonio and New Orleans, if separated, would (at 573 miles) require Texas and Louisiana funding.

So extend it slightly past Mobile to Atmore, MS, and it's long enough.

New Orleans to Mobile is the "attractive" section of the discontinued portion of the Sunset Limited: the portion on reasonably fast, signalled track, taking a reasonably direct route and stopping at major population centers.

Atmore is in Alabama.

Its now been 2 years since the North Coast Hiawatha Service Study has come out and we are no closer to train service in southern Montana than we were 2 years ago. No money has been allocated. No equipment has been ordered. No improvements have been designed or constructed.

So I will suggest what may be the longest Ambus route in the US. (not all stops are shown)


Rimrock Stages currently runs buses down I-90 and I-94 twice a day (three times per day between Billings and Missoula). An Ambus leaving Williston, ND after the arrival of the westbound Empire Builder at 11:07 am would arrive at Butte at 9:15 pm with intermediate stops at Glendive, Billings and Bozeman. A morning bus leaving Butte at 6:45 am would make the return trip to Williston, ND to catch the eastbound Empire Builder by 7:09 pm. The bus trips would be mostly during the day, allowing passengers to/from Minneapolis and Chicago to sleep more comfortably on the train. The bus schedule would also fill a 12-hour gap in the current Rimrock Stages schedule over the Montana section of I-90 and I-94.

The connection proposed is at Williston, ND. The train and bus don't stop at the same place in Fargo, Minneapolis and Chicago. The bus and train schedules are shown side by side for comparison.

John Stolberg

Missoula City Councilman wants restored Amtrak route; running for Congress

Strohmaier said he is a strong supporter of investing in the country's rail infrastructure. If elected, he would promote the possibility of restoring a southern Amtrak route through Montana as well as maintaining Amtrak's Empire Builder route across the Hi-Line.

Read more: http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-re ... z1k0jGs8X1

Tadman wrote:Parallel topic, please take discussion here.
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 46&t=65981

Merged some old topics.

If southern Montana service is so important because of the population centers, why not shift the Builder to a southern MT route? According to the linked map below, there's a secondary at the MT/ND border that links the NP with GN. Assuming it's not terrible track, route the Builder down to the NP, through the population, and back to the original routing in Idaho.

Tadman wrote:If southern Montana service is so important because of the population centers, why not shift the Builder to a southern MT route? According to the linked map below, there's a secondary at the MT/ND border that links the NP with GN. Assuming it's not terrible track, route the Builder down to the NP, through the population, and back to the original routing in Idaho.

This was never a through route, but I'm not sure how well Watco maintains the Yellowstone Valley Railroad - it might be better than I expect.

Whatever the shape of the line, northern Montana would be up in arms if their service were taken away and given to the southern part of the state.

FWIW, I recently bought some old issues of Passenger Train Journal. One, from the mid '80's (after the discontinuance of the North Coast Hiawatha), indicates that there was a serious proposal for MT and ND to jointly fund a 403b train on the NP route, but the states were unable to work out the details (I assume meaning they could not agree on how to split the costs). My sense is that there's more interest in reviving the train in MT than ND (most of the bigger towns in ND are on the EB route). Perhaps they might be able to fund a Billings-Spokane connecting train, but I rather doubt it.

Tadman wrote:If southern Montana service is so important because of the population centers, why not shift the Builder to a southern MT route? According to the linked map below, there's a secondary at the MT/ND border that links the NP with GN. Assuming it's not terrible track, route the Builder down to the NP, through the population, and back to the original routing in Idaho.

If a greater population always equated to more ridership, then the Empire Builder would be the least-ridden long distance train, but the opposite is true....it's been No. 1 for 9 consecutive years. The train is very well patronized on its current route and epitomizes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

The line from Snowden to Glendive is jammed with traffic associated with the booming oil exploration activity in Western North Dakota and Eastern Montana. No way could this line host a passenger train.

The rest of the North Coast Hiawatha route isn't much better. Please check out the 2009 North Coast Hiawatha study on the Amtrak website. It documents $1 billion of investment necessary just to get the train going, and considering that figure has insufficient funding for stations, it's probably even more.

At this time, the best policy to expand the visibility of passenger trains in America is to have more of them on existing routes. This allows a better utilization of equipment, station personnel, and stations and dramatically reduces the cost per train. Perhaps then, at some point in the future, trains will become so accepted that expansions, in spite of the "sticker shock" will be more palatable. But not now.

On October 31st I suggested a long feeder bus through southern Montana connecting to the Empire Builder at Williston, ND. Setting up that bus route would require negotiating a contract with a local bus company (probably Rimrock Stages), adding the bus to the reservations system, printing a few schedules and making a press announcement. It could all be done in a matter of weeks, not years. And the bus would start making money from day one. Amtrak and Rimrock could split the profits on the bus leg and Amtrak would benefit from 30 or more passengers filling the seats and roomettes from Williston to points east (at least on off-peak days when the Empire Builder isn't already full). During peak times, Rimrock would still make money on local travel between Williston and I-90.

Williston is a booming town. Amtrak boardings there surged 22% last year despite the flooding that shut down the Empire Builder for much of the summer. The oil business is booming in the area and many workers are making 6 figure salaries on a schedule that has them working 20 days on and 10 days off. That means many of them are traveling between their home state and work twice every 30 days from a city whose airport has 6 flights per day. If they don't take the train east, they might take a bus west.

This is a slam dunk. It won't take millions to start up. It won't take 4 years or more to implement. It doesn't require an Environmental Impact Study. It doesn't require that Amtrak buy any new equipment or train any new employees. It doesn't require congressional approval. It doesn't require an operating subsidy. It will make money for Amtrak the first month and every month.

Start the bus service now. Then after it gets established, Montana and North Dakota can lobby to get a rail service going.