New Trolleys for Philadelphia?

http://www.phillymag.com/citified/2015/ ... -trolleys/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to this article, Septa intends to procure new trolleys to replace the current fleet. Sounds like a great idea, but a massive amount of work to upgrade the entire system to support a new vehicle with different boarding procedures. Almost sounds like a light rail system similar to the many systems I experienced during my time in Europe, which is great, but I'm wondering if this is close to reality or just a nice thought.

ADA exemption time is running out for the Kawasaki's ...

New cars now require ~70% as level boarding passenger area for LRV's.

I love the article but i wish they would have used a picture of A K-Car lol. The pic throws everything off....i dont think SEPTA would consider what was in that pic. But if they have plans to re-do all of the surface streets into boarding locations i think it would be helpful. But i see that as a fight with residents who live along the street not having anywhere else to park. But SEPTA's website does have expression of interest for LRV's. So we shall see. But in order for SEPTA to meet ADA Requirements those sidewalks would have to be transformed into boarding location platforms or something for wheelchair accessibility. Im curious to see SEPTA's design for the new trolleys.

the article also states that SEPTA is considering whether to reopen route 23 as a trolley line

SEPTA is leaning toward Toronto's Bombardier spec because most of the technical issues having to do with tight curves and single-point switches have already been worked out. Technically though, any company that comes forward and says it can modify its cars to fit these radii is in contention. It's smart for SEPTA to have waited for Toronto to do most of the dirty work in getting a design and bid worked out. Rigid body models are almost certainly out of contention because the only companies making them are European (it might only be the Czechs) and no company is going to open a plant in the US to build a model streetcar that has no market anywhere else in the US. Only 2 companies bid for Toronto; Bombardier and Tram Power; likely due to the radii requirement. Both botched their bids and Tram Power was not allowed to bid again. Their only model (CityTram) has yet to be mass-produced and is based on a research paper. The only prototype caught fire in Blackpool, England in 2007 and screwed up Tram Power's attempt to court that city to buy more. The trolley is interesting; it was designed to Blackpool track specs which aren't very different than ours or Toronto's. It was also designed to be easy to build and maintain at low cost; their bid to Toronto was $2.9M CAN each for a 70% low floor model and $4.9M CAN each for a 100% low floor model compared to Bombardier's $6.13M CAN each. It would be interesting to see how a fleet would play out here if they could be acquired at a significant discount compared to Flexitys. Considering you have to live with these for the next 25 to 40 years though, it's wholly inadvisable for SEPTA to make such a gamble if it had a choice. If the Flexity Outlook does wind up being the next SEPTA trolley, I would be surprised if they go with the same number of rigid sections (5) as I can't see 100' trolleys rolling through West Philly. Also, Woodland shop would require heavy modification or replacement for a trolley above 67' and change. 3 or 2 sections if technically possible would be more likely.

Modifying corners for ADA is also a blessing in disguise because it allows you to re-space stops to every two blocks due to the costs involved. SEPTA gets to say its hand was forced to conform to regulations and that modifying each corner is cost prohibitive. This really will speed things up, especially if they can expand transit pre-emption.

SCB2525 and Everyone:

I noticed this article - and its example new Portland, Oregon LRV - as just giving an idea what new LRV cars
for SEPTA's trolley routes can look like when the decision is made to replace the Kawasaki fleet which are now
more then thirty years old - They have always been well maintained and have served SEPTA Subway Surface
routes well over the years - and the Red Arrow 101 and 102 routes with that car variation there...

I noticed that there was interest in Toronto's Flexity streetcar type as built by Bombardier - The TTC
has run into a multitude of problems with Bombardier such as a plant strike and long delays in the
building and delivery of these cars to replace the CLRV fleet - which date from as early as the late
70s and are even older then SEPTA's K cars...

See: http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread ... -Delivery-(Bombardier" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This forum thread topic has 339 pages and 5079 posts as of 3/18/2015

There are other options for a new SEPTA LRV fleet such as the Alstom Citadis Spirit LRT that is now being built for
Ottawa's (Ontario - the Capital of Canada) new light rail line...This rendering of the proposed cars is very interesting...

See: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1xnIbutbaqM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Coming soon to Ottawa - Alstom's Citadis Spirit

The one problem that I see with these longer cars is that they may be too long for the street running sections
and are better designed for segregated tracks - like the Subway sections leading to Center City - and it will take
time for motorists to learn how to deal with these longer LRVs as compared with the K cars on the streets...

MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote:SCB2525 and Everyone:
The one problem that I see with these longer cars is that they may be too long for the street running sections
and are better designed for segregated tracks - like the Subway sections leading to Center City - and it will take
time for motorists to learn how to deal with these longer LRVs as compared with the K cars on the streets...

MACTRAXX

Actually longer more flexible cars is actually a good thing. Clearances will improve with less carbody jutting out into other lanes when the LRV is navigating a tight curve.

ekt8750 wrote:

MACTRAXX wrote:SCB2525 and Everyone:
The one problem that I see with these longer cars is that they may be too long for the street running sections
and are better designed for segregated tracks - like the Subway sections leading to Center City - and it will take
time for motorists to learn how to deal with these longer LRVs as compared with the K cars on the streets...

MACTRAXX

Actually longer more flexible cars is actually a good thing. Clearances will improve with less carbody jutting out into other lanes when the LRV is navigating a tight curve.

EKT:

On further thought a three (or four) section A-B-A LRV depending on the length of each part can work on
SEPTA's surface trolley routes and would be more desirable then the rigid K cars on turns or curves...

Note the Portland LRV in the Citified link has three sections and the Alstom Citadis Spirit LRT car can
be customized to the length that would most work for SEPTA - unlike the longer TTC Flexity cars which
in their current state I believe are too long for the surface routes as they are currently set up...

MACTRAXX

nomis wrote:ADA exemption time is running out for the Kawasakis …

New cars now require ≈70% as level boarding passenger area for LRVs.

Grandfathering runs out? Only in the case of rebuilds, IIRC.

ekt8750 wrote:Actually longer more flexible cars is actually a good thing

Please consider maintenance costs. More moving parts increases the entropy factor.

Any Bombardier trolleys SEPTA would acquire would have to be built in the US; probably Plattsburgh, NY, and wouldn't be subject to the labor issues in Thunder Bay, ON.

Keep in mind with these trolleys; like I said, any manufacturer is welcome to bid but few likely will. The vast majority of the standard trolleys in production have minimum turning radii in the 50's, and some by truck design and arrangement can't be modified below that. Any tram with a bridge truck (center third truck) precludes use on track with single-point turnouts. This eliminates the Alstom Citadis (Ottawa) and Siemens S70 (Houston, Portland MAX, Utah). I would also put the United Streetcar USC100 (newest Portland cars), Brookville Liberty (soon to enter service in Dallas) and Inkeon's Portland spec cars out of contention as they have no front door and I don't see SEPTA going to POP on the trolley lines, at least not in the city.

I saw that Inekon developed a model (the Superior Plus) specifically for TTC curvature (with a front door even though TTC went POP) but they were not allowed to bid. I can't find why, but it may be local politics. The TTC has always seemed to favor Bombardier because of its plant in Thunder Bay. However, Inkeon's design to meet curvature specs seems to depend on 4 rigid sections at 100' total, with the trucks under the center sections mechanically connected to achieve proper truck rotation. I'm not sure if this is a problem with a 3 section design. I also that the Flexity is modular and can be customized down to 68 feet. It doesn't say however if that configuration can meet curvature specs either.

You never really know though. Any of the big companies may very well go through the trouble and expense of modifying their models or developing a new (heavily modified) model for the chance to bid for replacement of the United States' largest trolley fleet. SEPTA could also go the TTC route and outright replace Woodland Shop if faced with no viable alternative.

This will be an interesting bid.

zebrasepta wrote:the article also states that SEPTA is considering whether to reopen route 23 as a trolley line

everybody's always so hot and bothered for the the 23 line, but where's the chubb for the 56?

trackwelder wrote:

zebrasepta wrote:the article also states that SEPTA is considering whether to reopen route 23 as a trolley line

everybody's always so hot and bothered for the the 23 line, but where's the chubb for the 56?

buried under the asphalt with majority of the line

Tracks still remain mostly (some parts are paved over) on the 23 and the trolley wire on most(or some) part of the line

The 56 is hurting pretty bad. It would probably be easier to rebuild the 60 than the 56 at this point.

The labour issues in Thunder Bay were a problem but the real issue for Flexity appears to be subcontractor parts fit and quality. A US line would like have similar challenges but given timeframes likely to be significantly worked out by then. The wheelchair ramp (2-stage for road and platform) needed redesign and also reshaping of platforms. At 8 feet 4 they are two inches narrower than the Kawasakis and can take trolley poles (it's not clear what performance limitations this imposes until the switch to pantograph operation once the network is sufficiently changed over - may be just reduced AC.

There will be a difference in maintenance, with more going on at roof level than is usual for high floor cars. The heavy maintenance of these cars will be done at (new, expensive) Leslie Barns rather than Hillcrest. But that's the same for all low floors really.

Given the travails of the aerospace division burning cash, Bombardier shareholders would surely welcome a significant order for a product which, apart for the issues of widening the gauge by four inches and of getting the production line going in the US, should be able to arrive at the customer with relatively little other modification (and thus development spending)

Edit: at 12 feet 7, the Flexity seems taller than the Kawasaki and PCCs - are there vertical pinch points in the SEPTA system the extra foot or so would be problematic with?