New Trolleys for Philadelphia?

SCB2525 wrote:Remember that Newtown was also on the "latter part" of the capital budget for for almost 2 decades before being quietly dropped. The difference here is the trolley acquisition will put the spotlight on the 23 and 56 so it won't be as easy to sweep under the rug.

Newtown is the equivalent of building a totally new commuter rail line. Bit different when it comes to streetcars.

Yes, now it is but 10 to 20 years ago it wouldn't have needed nearly the amount of work it would now.

That's my whole point; a lot can happen to those trolley tracks and wire between now and 2021 at the EARLIEST (I guarantee the can will be kicked down the road further in coming budgets). If they were private rights of way they'd already be trails. Paving sections over for clumsy bike riders is the next best thing.

SCB2525 wrote:Yes, now it is but 10 to 20 years ago it wouldn't have needed nearly the amount of work it would now.

That's my whole point; a lot can happen to those trolley tracks and wire between now and 2021 at the EARLIEST (I guarantee the can will be kicked down the road further in coming budgets). If they were private rights of way they'd already be trails. Paving sections over for clumsy bike riders is the next best thing.

I've seen flangeway type track with heavy rubber slats that the streetcars can push down, but bicycles ride over as a flat surface.

http://bikeportland.org/2011/09/01/a-fe ... fety-58408" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nedstrail.nl/velostrail_fotogalerij.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.railforthevalley.com/latest- ... get-along/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Really anyone riding a bike that isn't for racing or training for racing should have wider tires, such as a 26x1.5 or 700c 35 mm width. Skinny tires have no place on transportation bikes.

TrainPhotos wrote:Really anyone riding a bike that isn't for racing or training for racing should have wider tires, such as a 26x1.5 or 700c 35 mm width. Skinny tires have no place on transportation bikes.

I don't want to throw the thread too far off-topic, but as both a transit proponent and a lifetime cyclist IMHO the question isn't whether you're a racer or not, it's what's appropriate for the venue. I'm not into racing etc. (my knees are no longer 25 years old ) but there are plenty of times my narrow-tire bike is appropriate - and plenty of times I need my "fatty". The key is to be a smart rider and know which is which. A road with streetcar tracks is NOT safe for narrow tires even if you're only going 15 km/hr.

the problem is somewhat generational, i've noticed. people in my generation are much less situation-ally aware of their surroundings as they should. consequently, they ride their bikes on to streetcar tracks and re-enact american history x, then cry. bikes and associated "green" options are the hot thing, so their voices are much louder then traditional transit advocates, especially those who espouse what is still seen by some as an old timey mode of public transit.

trackwelder wrote:the problem is somewhat generational, i've noticed. people in my generation are much less situation-ally aware of their surroundings as they should. consequently, they ride their bikes on to streetcar tracks and re-enact american history x, then cry. bikes and associated "green" options are the hot thing, so their voices are much louder then traditional transit advocates, especially those who espouse what is still seen by some as an old timey mode of public transit.

The core of the problem with green transport, is that people are too divided as to which method is the best. Streetcars use electricity, which can be from a polluting source, yet they can enable a car-free lifestyle. Bicycles are great, but motorists (and some cyclists) sometimes have no clue as to how to behave when sharing the road. Not everyone can ride a bicycle, but pretty much anyone can ride a streetcar, especially if it's low floor. We in the "green minded" group can all agree that no one should have to drive an automobile. Smart planning just isn't in our DNA, i mean just look at what happened with the railroads after world war 2.

In any case, i hope the new trolleys have room for non-folding bikes. That would be excellent.

Philadelphia is way off it’s historical high population period of close to 2,000,000 from the late 1940’s through the early 1960’s, so is massive core employers (Navy Yard, Arsenal, et al.) which today are non-existent, and the center city central business area has never been a strong magnet area as compared to the once outstanding and thriving blue collar and manufacturing. More importantly, the one very high population density that was at or greater than 20,000.00/square mile is now about 10,000.00/square mile.

Does street-running rail make any sense now or for the near future. Moreover, the FTA, and other government agencies, how would they interpret the current facts and projections in the process of grant making?

Let’s look back at the Schuylkill Valley Metro (SVM), the concept is good for light rail transit, but in this case, not quite as overreaching or ambitious as the past proposal, but utilize one of many underutilized and disused rail lines. Norristown Transportation Center via Bala/Cynwyd, one of the two Chestnut Hill line etc. are all possibly workable examples.

Also since new shops, infrastructure would be required, switch to standard US rail gauge should be considered, as this may lower vehicle cost somewhat now and later on when replacement is needed.

tdoran1951 wrote:
Also since new shops, infrastructure would be required, switch to standard US rail gauge should be considered, as this may lower vehicle cost somewhat now and later on when replacement is needed.

this would only make the existing infrastructure even more of an expensive to replace oddball. if we expand the existing system, the cost of replacement vehicles would gradually come down

I don't mean to be mean but changing the gauge of ALL trolley trackage would be so hugely expensive compared to the minor cost of aquiring trolleys with a non-standard gauge as to be not even worth discussing.

With tight curve radii and a vehicle width between the 8' and 8' 8" common options you're not going to be buying an off the shelf LRV anyway, so gauge probably isn't going to be that big an issue.

SCB2525 wrote:I don't mean to be mean but changing the gauge of ALL trolley trackage would be so hugely expensive compared to the minor cost of aquiring trolleys with a non-standard gauge as to be not even worth discussing.

All trackage would have to be replaced in to handle the LRT's, Philly's "kill zone" is too tight for LRT's at any moderate speed, LRT in standard gauge would be cheaper, plus more common to US standard gauge.

No it wouldn't. LRT's have already been engineered for a system ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME AS OURS. At worst you'd have to reconstruct the loops and make serious modifications to the tunnel, which still doesn't justify replacing ALL track. You're doing all this work you propose just because currently you don't have full freedom to use ANY LRT vehicle on the market?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you likely don't have an engineering or construction background because you don't seem to have the faintest idea of the vastness of a project such as you proposed nor how horrendously poor the benefit to cost is. SEPTA would justifiably abandon the current trolley system in its entirety before even considering regauging.

Even if $10B suddenly dropped in SEPTAs lap, re gauging the trolley system would be a wild misuse of funds.

I wonder if Kawasaki would be a contender because i would think they could dig back into their records and see the specs and of the SEPTA Proposal and tunnel widths and heights and track sizes and make a possible bid since they did back in the 80's. And not much has changed since then. I feel like they would be the only ones maybe qualified because they made products for this specific mode and market.

Don't forget $100M for a new Heavy Repair shop and $10M-$20M (or More) to retrofit 69th street Shop.

Going to longer cars will be a huge expense.

And considering so much of the Subway Surface Trolleys have recently had their tracks replaced, I would give up any thought of re-gauging an entire rail system.

NOT to mention the issues this would have with the EL, because at 69th street, the El and the Suburban trollies share tracks there.