New Jersey Seashore Lines: was CNJ being cleard Woodmansie>N

I was hoping that picture would reappear. "Always Expect A Train" has become "See Tracks Think Train Ignore Sign" at least on Mine Street.

wolfboy8171981 wrote:Could we lobby to change the law so that lesser branch lines could automatically qualify for Exempt status. There is no reason that the entire Southern Sec should not qualify for Exempt status.

(Speaking personally here) I don't agree with you that the entire Southern Secondary should qualify but simplifying the process is certainly worth thinking about. Remember that this is looked at from a traffic safety standpoint, not railroad operating rules, and the criteria is based on the relative likelihood of train/vehicle v vehicle/vehicle collisions. FMCSA and PHMSA regulate most of the carriers whose vehicles are required to stop and any change would need to be consistent with those regulations. There would also have to be a clear criteria for lesser branch lines and a trigger for removing the exemption if the criteria were no longer met. My personal view is that a crossbuck should be treated as 'Stop' or 'Yield' and that if we hang exemptions on every lightly used branch the collision rate generally will increase because the basic sign will have lost its meaning. It would be like hanging an 'optional' sign under Stop' and 'Yield' signs.

glennk419 wrote:Well maybe not the ENTIRE Southern Secondary. SRNJ still has several active grade crossings in and to the south of Winslow ( S. Egg Harbor Rd, Hammonton Rd, Mays Landing Rd ) but I do understand what you were getting at.

Welcome to the world of those of us who try to earn our livings dealing with these things. We're talking here about crossings, not lines of railroad or railroad companies. The definitions below are how we keep from doing our own version of 'Who is on First'.

Active Crossing – A railroad grade crossing of a highway, road, trail, or pathway which is protected by lights, gates, bells, or other devices regardless of the legal status of either.
Passive Crossing – One which is protected only by signage (or maybe not even that).
Open Crossing - Any railroad grade crossing of a highway, road, trail, or pathway regardless of the legal status of either.
Closed Crossing – The location of railroad grade crossing of a highway, road, trail, or pathway regardless of the legal status of either, where one or both have been physically removed and all easements vacated.

The designation 'Southern Secondary' refers to a specific line of railroad operated by Conrail Shared Assets between Red Bank and Lakehurst. It does not apply to the former Southern Division of the Jersey Central as a whole. There are at least three other designations between there and Bridgeton, If you try telling the dispatcher that you are at the crossing of the Southern Secondary and US 322 his first reaction is going to be that you're really lost and then he is going to have to do some work to figure out where you really are.

On the former Southern Division all of the crossings from Red Bank to Woodmansie are 'Open'. Not all are 'Active'. On Seashore Lines Diamond and Bullock, along with all the crossings in the woods south of 539 are 'Open' and 'Passive'. Between Woodmansie and US 30 where the signs and signals have been removed and the rails paved over or removed all of the crossings are 'Closed'. From US 30 to Bridgeton they are all 'Open'. Some are 'Active'. Some are 'Passive'. The fact that SRNJ has not operated into Vineland for several years does not 'Close' those crossings, they are 'Open' regardless of whether they are 'Active' or 'Passive'. 206 near Atison is 'Closed' account no track. Colonial is 'Open', because track crosses the road, and 'Active' because there are signals there, even though none of us would consider the track active. Got it?

Since OL has weighed in, let me make a suggestion that I have had in the back of my mind for some time. On the highways, there are many intersections with flashing yellow lights in one direction and flashing reds in the other. The flashing yellow indicates caution, while the flashing red indicates a 'stop and proceed when safe'. (Its been a few decades since I've had a drivers' manual in my hands, so my wording may not be letter perfect-)

I wonder if in some cases it has become a habit for drivers to stop, look at the oncoming train, and then decide that it safe to proceed. That is, if the driver even comes to a full stop; there are lots of 'California stops' (rolling stops). That attitude may be because the lights are flashing, just like on the highway traffic lights.

My suggestion is to add a third light to the traditional crossing signals, one that is on constantly. The alternate flashing reds get the drivers attention, while the solid red demands an absolute stop while it is still lit. I understand that there are similar systems overseas. I also saw, a week ago, a pair or standard traffic light (R/Y/G) mounted on a cantilever, along with the traditional crossbucks and lights, on US 40 just below Wilmington, DE.

How difficult would it be to try this as an experiment? The cost shouldn't be that much, the light itself, some liquid-tite conduit and fittings, wire, and a bit of the signal maintainers time. I don't even think another relay in the control cabinet would be necessary.

Well worth looking into...

I would like to express my appreciation to Mr. Allen for the extremely thorough explanation of both the nature of the grade crossings of specific concern here and the service provided same to any other threads. It is on the order of a GME who specificity can reach the granular level. For those visiting who do not appreciate that level of detail, well what can I say. I for one find it enlightening. Thank you again sir.

It is not OLS', not Office of Legislative Services here,task to provide any insight into the timing of hearings related to the return to service of the former CNJ main and the information that Rt.530 passes muster is only good news. Jeez with all the improvements it got, including those fancy airhorns, what additional level of safety could we afford for our sometimes errant seniors, to say nothing of the lil tykes on Manchester Blvd 10 months a year.

Yet it is evidence on another level as well as that documented on the thread dedicated to CAS&O ops (such as the diminished pile of ties at Sycamore in Tinton Falls), that a steady pace of improvements have graced this once vaunted line, well at least to the north of the Route 72 bridge. Anything south indeed belongs more to the ages than anything. Although as somebody said at least it belongs to NJ Transit and has not be parceled off. Hope springs eternal, but ROW improvements can be a little slower.

Now the question as always of the hour, the decade, the century..Will it result in motive power of any stripe moving across those Active, Passive, Open or Closed crossings anytime soon?

Michael, thank you for the detailed explanation and definitions. Yes, I did confuse the Southern Secondary and the Southern Division.

Rail-hauled sand mining finally beginning at Clayton:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/487885" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Just kidding

glennk419 wrote:Michael, thank you for the detailed explanation and definitions. Yes, I did confuse the Southern Secondary and the Southern Division.

Lightly used lines should have an exempt status in the first place. Look I'm for being safe but a lot of these laws are knee jerk reactions. Other than tanker trucks I personally object to unnecessarily bringing traffic to a halt for no reason. Yes that includes buses too. They're no more important than we are. And no it does not change people's mind set when it comes to grade crossings altho I expect OLS people to make those type of statements. People who run crossing lights are plain ignorant in the first place and no law or education will change that.

And based on my observations, crossings with only a crossbuck usually have the trains stop before the crossing to make sure it's safe to cross. Personally, I think ALL crossings should have signals - period. Time to get into the 21st century.

bluedash2 wrote:

glennk419 wrote:Michael, thank you for the detailed explanation and definitions. Yes, I did confuse the Southern Secondary and the Southern Division.

Lightly used lines should have an exempt status in the first place. Look I'm for being safe but a lot of these laws are knee jerk reactions. Other than tanker trucks I personally object to unnecessarily bringing traffic to a halt for no reason. Yes that includes buses too. They're no more important than we are. And no it does not change people's mind set when it comes to grade crossings altho I expect OLS people to make those type of statements. People who run crossing lights are plain ignorant in the first place and no law or education will change that.

I drove school buses for over 10 years, and I agree completely with you. With a lot of people not always paying
the greatest attention on the road (Thanks, electronics!), it can be more dangerous stopping and getting rear-ended.

Weather also can play a factor.......sometimes it's a wiser choice to keep the flow of traffic going! With that said, I don't
see the law changing to reverse it......not in today's lawsuit-happy world.

Charlie

Thanks for agreeing Charlie. That law was a knee jerk reaction to an incident, I believe in Illinios, back in the 90's in which six kids lost their lives because a bus driver 1) pulled too far up with a vehicle that size without being 100% sure he had enough room and ignoring the "when in doubt, DON'T DO" rule and 2) ignored his screaming students warning him they were in harms way. He didn't even want to risk doing a little damage to a car in order to save a half dozen kids from their death. Typical of how this country operates.

I do recall hearing about the Illinois incident......the 1972 crash in Congers, New York is another incident that
our school-bus driver instructors drove-home to us. This happened on what was then "Penn Central's River Line"
in Rockland County.

Courtesy of Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilchrest_ ... g_accident" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Charlie

Why all the fuss over exempt crossings? Do you all drive school or passenger vehicles?

I drive a school bus. I stop for crossings. That's what the law says I have to do. Stop 15 to 50 feet from the crossing, observe that it is safe to cross, and then proceed. It is actually required to bring the vehicle to a full stop, place in park or neutral, and open the side door (if equipped) to improve visibility. (Well, that's what we're supposed to do, and yes, many just do a rolling stop instead of a full stop)

So unless you drive such a vehicle, or are stuck behind one, why worry about the status of these crossings?

Yes, it can be a pain in the neck, especially with multiple back-and-forths in such places as Asbury Park, but it's just a part of the job. Like traffic lights.

Instead of fussing over crossing exemptions, why not lobby Trenton to re-time traffic lights so you don't catch the same ones, day after day?

(Posted twice, deleted #2)

GSC wrote:Why all the fuss over exempt crossings? Do you all drive school or passenger vehicles?

Just for the record, I did drive school buses for a living.......did it for almost 12 years until
I had to stop working. Miss those smiling-faces every day to be honest!

And I love the idea of lobbying for traffic-lights to be properly timed. I think that would be far
better for the common-good of all motorists!

Charlie

charlie6017 wrote:I do recall hearing about the Illinois incident......the 1972 crash in Congers, New York is another incident that
our school-bus driver instructors drove-home to us. This happened on what was then "Penn Central's River Line"
in Rockland County.

Courtesy of Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilchrest_ ... g_accident" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Charlie

I have the Reader's Digest with the story "Bus Crash" that was about the Congers tragedy. I did a book report on it in 4 th grade and my teacher thought I was a little strange for choosing the topic.I got an "A" anyway.

I am hoping we won't stray too much more from the thread topic?