Maine Narrow Gauge Museum Discussion

I believe that centralizing the various narrow gauge groups in Maine would be a non-starter. The railroad operations at Boothbay are part of their village concept. The WW&F and SR&RL are operating on portions of their original ROW. Each group has its own personality and personalities . We do attempt to display each other's brochures; we occasionally borrow things (and people) from each other; we occasionally consult with each other on how to do things and where to get things. I guess "independent but cooperative" sums up the situation, and it seems to work well.
-John

CarterB wrote:Cosmo, your rants against our suggestions are uncalled for. The suggestion IS and WAS, that if the groups of NGRR are, or become, either financially strapped, lack volunteers and support, lose their leases, or otherwise fall on hard straits, that they should CONSIDER consolidation someplace in Maine. No one ever suggested Denver. Just look at what has happened to the Mohawk & Hudson Chapter NHRS, Trolleyville, and numerous other organizations in the past decade. IMHO, it's a lot better to at least discuss deficiencies, mutual help, and futures, than to have events creep up on you and lose.

I could say the same thing about Paul comparing the WW&F to his bathroom.
I could make a much more unflattering comparison to EDAville as it stands today, but that would make me the pot calling the kettle black.
How about instead of making suggestions for what you think would be best for the organizations involved, try getting involved! WW&F is having a BIG event this year.
Come up, visit, help us build some track, and see just what "dire straits" they are NOT in. I honestly think you'd be quite pleasantly surprised if you do, and I hope you will and are.
If you do come up, you'll find out exactly what mutual help there is, as volunteers from all over New England and farther, representing MANY other organizations, come up to lend support to what is already there and keep such dire circumstances at bay there.
What is truly a shame is that EDAville does not now, nor do I ever see it likely to have that sort of grass roots organizational support.
Oh, and once again, there IS much co-operation and mutual support between the M2F organizations and within the New England preservation community. This is why WW&F is what it is and why MNGR, despite what detractors say about it or it's location, is as successful as they are.
It's easy to say "Oh, well, they should just do this-or-that," it's another thing totally to have a hand in making someplace what it is and helping it get better.

C'mon Cosmo, lighten up ! These suggestions that we are making are legitimate ones, with a little humor thrown in on my part. Your obviously upset reaction is the very force which works against the preservationist movement as it compartmentalizes an already rare and fragmented collection. We don't have to move anyone's collection out of New England. Just somewhere central which has access from all points. I believe that the Edaville location has this. Such a collection could be the answer which was thought to have been an answer at one time, and that is the government ownership of such a collection (Steamtown), which, as we have seen, does have serious problems of it's own. But, the point that we are trying to make here is that if small groups keep on hoarding, especially in remote locales like Maine or New Hampshire, this stuff is going to be lost very soon without anyone alive who remembers it operating. On the other hand, putting a "multi-collection" in a large "Steamtown-like" environment, where there would be many hands in the upkeep and operation, would give such a place both exposure and longevity. Now, look at what you've done. I have a standing line of tourists from Conneticut standing outside my home with $5 in their hands wanting to tour my bathroom , damn it !

Wow 3rd rail, you must have a great bathroom.

Each of the individual museums have their own little draw. Combining them into one could prove to be the end. Not saying it would never happen, but for the time being the sharing of equipment, ideas, and people work well.

This move to Gray is going to be another chapter in the book of MNGRR. Hopefully this is a place where they can blow the whistle.

Mike

3rdrail wrote:Your obviously upset reaction is the very force which works against the preservationist movement as it compartmentalizes an already rare and fragmented collection.

Bravo!!!!!

Ok, ok, ok... I see where you're coming from Paul, however...
... even if I concede that the suggestions are legitimate (and here's my caveat: I made the Denver suggestion with a LOT of humor thrown in just to make a point,) the idea that small groups are "hoarding" the collection is not. As I said, only a small percentage of the total collection- or, rather, the original M2F pieces of that collection, are at either WW&F or the SRRP in Philips. The old non-operating pieces are now scattered widely. The bulk of the collection was maintained intact as it is BECAUSE of the MNGRR, otherwise who knows where it would be, but it almost certainly would not have remained in Carver, at least not in toto.
While the demise of EDAville was agreeably tragic, it in fact represented the hoarding of the collection IN a central location. It's breakup had a beneficial effect in that it enabled legitimate and capable groups like the WW&F to obtain pieces for their own collections that they otherwise would not have been able to. One piece in particular is the aforementioned W&Q coach #3. That piece is now on it's home rails, or as close to it can be in this day and age. What's more, it is well maintained and cared for. My point being here, there's a lot to be said for "compartmentalization." As well, the SRRP group was able to lease the MNGRR #3 and has been instrumental in it's repair, something which, while MNGRR may have been capable of on it's own, would most likely have had to have been done at the sacrifice or at least the postponement of the current project to rebuild B&SR #7, both "old friends of mine" from EDAville, both of which I look forward to seeing run again in the future.
So, I guess my counter-question to your own is, how is Portland not a "centrally located, accessible location?" Weather the group begins an operation elsewhere in the future or not, it's pretty much assured that #7 along with Monson #4 will be running again in Portland.
Oh, and btw, there's one thing Portland has that South Carver does not, and that is direct access by rail to Boston!! So, in that respect, it is in fact more accessible than EDAville. Now, agreeably, if the entire collection moves to Grey, well, that'll be a tad longer distance, and I don't know how close to the Downeaster extension the Gray location will be. Likewise if it moves lock-stock and barrel to Bridgeton, which has no rail connection to anywhere and is not likely to soon. So, in that respect, I concede some serious points.
But the one thing iit really can't do anymore is move back to South Carver.
So, my question to you guys is this: "If moved to a centrally accessible location, where would this location BE?" Where could it be moved besides Carver that would or could afford the group the space and the means to operate AND maintain the collection properly? What other locations in Massachusetts or even Rhode Island actually exist that the rail could be put down and a facility be built for their shop/museum?

I'm not so sure that a move out of state is something that I would really be in favor of....but some sort of "umbrella" group is something that would be a good idea. Not saying that this is the only way to go, but a "governing body" for the entire collection made up of representatives from all of the groups looks good on paper. A big pool of people who can help eachother out may be good. Standardizing a plan for stabilization and pooling the resources of grant writing and advertising also may give the groups a much needed boost. Just a "for example" for you Pete....there are people in the other groups who could come help in the operations dept at WW&F, but because they don't have the 150 hours at WW&F they are prevented from doing so. Now for a "rookie" I think this is a great thing. It gives them time to see how well they will fit in, but for intra group relations....it stinks....it kind of alienates some people with an air of "we're so much better than you" even though you and I both know that this is not the case. A standard steam program could help everyone with operations issues. Just a thought.

Ok, well, while not an "umbrella group" in the strictest most purest sense of the word, the boards of the different organizations DO talk and do co-operate with each other. But I also agree that some sort of collective "steam program" might be beneficial to all the organizations as well. It would be nice if people qualified steam on one (of the 2' rr's at least) could be able to operate more easily (not just waltz in and climb aboard, but have their experience count more significantly toward) at the other railroads.
What I cant see happening is a total governing body that would control everything 2' in Maine or elsewhere. I can only imagine the balking from the different organizations involved. But while there is currently some degree of co-operation (more, I believe, behind-the-scenes than most people realize) more is always possible and can certainly be of benefit. I believe that is the direction the groups are now headed.

Cosmo wrote:Ok, well, while not an "umbrella group" in the strictest most purest sense of the word, the boards of the different organizations DO talk and do co-operate with each other. But I also agree that some sort of collective "steam program" might be beneficial to all the organizations as well. It would be nice if people qualified steam on one (of the 2' rr's at least) could be able to operate more easily (not just waltz in and climb aboard, but have their experience count more significantly toward) at the other railroads.
What I cant see happening is a total governing body that would control everything 2' in Maine or elsewhere. I can only imagine the balking from the different organizations involved. But while there is currently some degree of co-operation (more, I believe, behind-the-scenes than most people realize) more is always possible and can certainly be of benefit. I believe that is the direction the groups are now headed.

I don't think the cooperation idea is really that new... ORHF comes to my mind as a good example of an "umbrella group", but in the cooperation department, I think the Bluebell railway would fit the co-op bill, seeing they host about three different organizations who's locomotives are either in use or under overhaul.

3rdrail wrote: Edaville was a standout venue. Why not try to do it again. These remote locations where few are going to see equipment, or worse, places where equipment is under a tarp with disappearing parts with nothing but promises and champagne toasts to speak of, are taking away from the possibility that Edaville could be once again.

Edaville WAS a standout venue, at one time run by people who really cared about what they had. I first went there in the Ball Park Station days and my final visit was at Fred Richardson's surprise 80th birthday party. A good final memory of a historic site.
I'm very pleased that virtually all equipment was moved to Maine. I have been a member of MNGRR, SR&RL, and WW&F for years, have regularly contributed to all 3, and have done some limited volunteer work at 2 of them.
Sure, all has not been easy for these groups but progress is being made. Current plans at the MNGRR for moving to Gray will undoubtedly include shelter for a greater part of the collection, SR&RL has most under cover already as does the WW&F, and plans at the latter two include enough cover for all pieces. This is something that Edaville never provided in any era.

I wish the latest incarnation of Edaville the best, but it will never be the Old Edaville. The current owner is a business person with little sentiment for things that don't pay a return on his investment - that's my observation, not a condemnation: he has a perfect right to be that way. The stakeholders in the various Maine operations have a real love for their items and have been doing their best to give them good homes. The number of visitors will be less, but you can be assured that those who do "go to the sticks" to visit these operations will have a better understanding concerning the history of 2 foot railroading than they would have at what has apparently become a sideshow at a small amusement park.

It is what it is, not what it was.

In today's Portland Press Herald:

Portland Press Herald wrote:Last week, the board of the nonprofit organization, located on the Portland waterfront, decided to go to Gray to hunt for land for its new home, bypassing Bridgton, Monson and Portland.

Board President Jerry Angier said Gray stood out from the rest because of its existing right of way along a defunct high-speed trolley line that linked Portland to Lewiston in the 1920s and 1930s. He said the museum will need to negotiate with several property owners, including Central Maine Power Co., which controls the trolley line.

He said his organization has also met with Gray landowner Dan Craffey, who owns Gray Plaza on Route 100 and Moose Landing Marina in Naples.

Angier said the museum has yet to sign any options for land or work out any permanent solutions.

Read more at: http://www.pressherald.com/news/railroa ... 10-03.html

It's definitely a step foward. Just asking, but how far from Portland is Grey?

daylight4449 wrote:Just asking, but how far from Portland is Grey?

Not that far. http://g.co/maps/6z4kr

Cosmo wrote:But I also agree that some sort of collective "steam program" might be beneficial to all the organizations as well. It would be nice if people qualified steam on one (of the 2' rr's at least) could be able to operate more easily (not just waltz in and climb aboard, but have their experience count more significantly toward) at the other railroads.

This should not be a problem at all. Works the same way in the rest of the railroad world. My engineers licence is good where ever I go. All I need to do at a new property is do my physical characteristics and rules. Some thing in Maine, all of the steam guys have to have worked as a fireman, have the training, and pass the Maine State test. That should be good enough (after phisical characteristics and rules) at any of the properties. Not (like WW&F) a while back saying"we need steam help" and when the guys from Maine Narrow Gauge offered to help..."Not your kind of help, you don't have 150 hours at OUR place. We know that you have been running steam for 20+ years but we don't care. Thanks but no thanks....We need help!" If I was from Maine Narrow Gauge Steam Program, that would have turned me right off.

Cosmo wrote:What I cant see happening is a total governing body that would control everything 2' in Maine or elsewhere. I can only imagine the balking from the different organizations involved. But while there is currently some degree of co-operation (more, I believe, behind-the-scenes than most people realize) more is always possible and can certainly be of benefit. I believe that is the direction the groups are now headed.

This is where we will agree to disagree. There are these kind of combination groups all over the place, and it would be very bennificial to pool the recources. There is some of this going on (to a point) but there could be more. I hope that you are right, and there will be much more in the future. I think it will be to the benefit of the collection. We need to remember that it should be about the collection, and not someone or some groups ego.

steamer69 wrote: Not (like WW&F) a while back saying"we need steam help" and when the guys from Maine Narrow Gauge offered to help..."Not your kind of help, you don't have 150 hours at OUR place. We know that you have been running steam for 20+ years but we don't care. Thanks but no thanks....We need help!" If I was from Maine Narrow Gauge Steam Program, that would have turned me right off.

That's not quite accurate. There was the time when #3 went to Alna, they brought their steam crew.

There has been guest engineers and firemen before, and will continue to be some in the future.

The 150 hour rule at WW&F was put into place to help the museum. It was created so people would become vested in the museum. Little work would get done if people just showed up to pay trains, without ever having to help with the grunt work. The rule is also flexible, depending on the individual and the past training. Could be as simple as passing a rules review class.

I would like to see MNGRR create some kind of rule like that. Maybe not 150 hours but something along that line. Maybe 50 or 75. It would be beneficial to them in the long run.

Mike