Maine Narrow Gauge Museum Discussion

Sorry man, but I just don't get your point
[Oh, and Philips is on the original SR&RL grade between Farmington and Rangely.]
The WW&F is exactly that, "East Overshoe" in this case being outside of Wiscasset, and they get PLENTY of visitors and their stuff is kept up EXTREMELY well. (They even get school trips!) Granted, they're a LOT closer to populace centers than Philips, but still, it negates the point that simply being way out in the boonies alone counts as a disqualifier. And if you think WW&F is way out there, then try Boothbay! BBRV not only takes good care of their stuff, they're a MAJOR Maine tourist destination.
Bridgeton itself is closer to a well traveled East-West route from ME to NH than Philips,...
...but South Carver? It takes FOREVER to get there from Providence, let alone Boston! How does EDAville not count as "West Cuddy-Cape-a-hant?" My point here being "yeah, EDAville is closer to Boston,...sorta... and depending on traffic... weeeellllllllll............"
But location aside, the equipment was built for and operated in Maine originally. It took a LOT of effort to get it "Home," albeit with great supporting popular interest, but MNGRR has made NO mention of South Carver being in the running whatsoever...
...and it's NOT just because Edaville isn't in Maine. It simply is not available to them as an option.
Would it be NICE to see EDAville returned to it's former glory? HECK YES!!
DO I believe for one moment that it's practical to move everything BACK there?
Golly-GOSH-heck, NO!!
For one thing, EDAville isn't a museum anymore (see: my tag line below v v v).
I mean, hey... look at it this way....
..would you want to see the historic equipment up at Kennebunk brought back to Boston and run on the MBTA? (Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing it myself.)
But,.. is that really the BEST place for it? Really?
What I'd like to see is for MNGRR somehow be able to maintain SOME of it's equipment in Portland while establishing a satellite operation, either in Bridgeton or Grey. Maybe if the one proves unsuccessful they can "shrink back" to the more successful one. But half the problem they have in Portland is SPACE. Space to fix, space to display, (they DO have space to run. Only so much, but it's a good little run.) Moving to Philips would only exacerbate that problem, very little space, plus VERY short run, shorter even than the current EDAville, and NO room for expansion (at least not right now. that could change.)
Both Bridgeton and Grey have ample available space and extant ROW's to run on, Bridgeton being far more historically significant to the narrow gauge.
Ok,.. all these points were covered earlier in this thread (and probably will be again.) I concede your point is germane in that the equipment ran longer at EDAville than anywhere else, but the glory days of that park are long past. Do I wish it was otherwise, do I mourn the EDAville I knew growing up? Yes and yes. But such is not the case. You can blame the owners, you can blame operators or developers, but that is all food for another thread which already exists.

How about this: move the equipment to Ellsworth, spike a third rail down the middle of the existing Calais Branch / Downeast Scenic Railroad tracks, and voila you've got yourself a combined standard gauge / narrow gauge tourist railroad, conveniently located at the gateway to one of the most beautiful national parks in America!

I'm kidding.

Or am I?

Does anyone know where in Gray they are planning on locating?

Cosmo- First, before I forget, I have to admit the obvious, and that is that I didn't read the preceeding posts and was thinking Edaville (as well as an Edaville thread is currently active). I was going to say "Whoops", but then, it dawned on me that it was a perfectly accurate answer to the point at hand. My point is getting kids interested in our hobby. The WW&F pretty much depends on rail buffs for paying visitors. Edaville never did. Do you want to convince yourself of who had the better venue ? Check out Christmas Vacation numbers, either visitors or receipts at both places, any year except a year that either wasn't running obviously. I'll bet you that Edaville saw more than 100 times the number of visitors.

Ok, again, I'll concede it's a valid point based solely on the numbers, but...
...in actuality, no, WW&F is not solely dependent on just the rail buffs. They have incredible community and family support. The kind you just won't find in South Carver.
Ok, I'm going to say it, you're comparing mangos to paw-paws. Yeah, they may look a lot alike to some people, but they really AREN'T the same thing.
EDAville is an "attraction" where the WW&F is a museum. It's not the numbers themselves that make the place magic, it's the dedicated volunteers that number in the hundreds that make it magic.
If EDAville was somehow open to such volunteer efforts then it could feasibly be comparable and ultimately more financially successful, but...
It's not JUST about the numbers and not JUST about the $$.
It's about creating a new location for a museum, not building a new tourist trap, and not recreating or reviving an old one.
Back in the day, EDAville was MORE of a museum and less of an amusement park. That day has passed and now there is a collection of precious artifacture sitting in Maine, getting attention, and looking for "higher ground."
Oh, and there's a travesty of it's former self down in Carver where that artifacture used to run. Sad, but fact.

I think that I am going to have to sort of agree with Cosmo on this one. We really can't compare Edaville and MNG in these terms as they are two totally different things. I do wonder what kind of agreement MNG is going to get to mitigate the funding issue. I could be wrong about this but isn’t one of the big reasons that they want to move due the cost of rent and the inability to invest in capital improvements because of this? Wouldn’t they have the same thing in Grey (either with a mortgage or rent to the property owner)? And as far as the patronage goes, this has a lot to do with the personnel (volunteers in this case) and or management. WW&F has a very close and tight nit group of core people that all seem to have the same values, have been together for a long time, and seem to be able to get (and galvanize) volunteers without a lot of turnover. Also there are very few complaints (that I have heard) about them not bending over backwards for people at the site. MNG has been fighting an up road battle with this for a while.
However Cosmo, sometimes you have to play the “dog and pony show” (i.e. tourist trap) to pay the bills in order to save the museum. The harsh reality of this is that most people could care less about the “museum” aspect of it as long as they get their “day out with Thomas”,” Polar Express”, and other special events. There is a very fine line in balancing capitol collections improvements with the need to offset the cost in terms of funding gaps in any grant or donation intake. Museums near a population center or in locations (like Edaville) where the expenditures for property maintenance, taxes and other unavoidable costs are higher just due to being in a more expensive area, don’t really have the choice of just being a “museum” and not having to be a “tourist trap”.

Cosmo - I'm speaking of the comparison as an entity for both venues in the hope of illustrating "what could be". Therefore instead of comparing Maine's best periods and Edaville's worst, why not compare all locations at their best ? This is precisely why I estimated the draw at 100 times plus. Edaville was a standout venue. Why not try to do it again. These remote locations where few are going to see equipment, or worse, places where equipment is under a tarp with disappearing parts with nothing but promises and champagne toasts to speak of, are taking away from the possibility that Edaville could be once again.

How many NG museums/operations are there in ME now? WC&F, MNGR, SR&RL, Edaville?
Wouldn't it just make a whole lotta sense to consolidate all into one?

The 2' railroads in ME right now are as follows.....
Maine Narrow Gauge
Wiscasset Waterville & Farmington
Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes
Booth Bay Railway Village

Edaville, although concidered by some to be the cradle of the Maine 2' preservation movement is in Mass. And to go there now, it's only a shadow of it's former self.

The idea of some sort of combined effort has been thrown around before, and some of the groups work well together. Maine Narrow Gauge has already either sold or lent out a number of pieces to the other railroads. However, trying to get all of them to combine would (in my opinion) not work. Each of the groups has a well entrenched following that would never let "their identity" go away. However, an umbrella group like TRAIN or something like that may not be a bad idea to help pool some recorces and bring a bigger credibility to some of the groups.

While standing on 'principle' is good, seems to me in these hard times for railroad museums/lines, that combining them would not only afford a greater pool of volunteers, and donations, but also make for much more attractive-to-the-public operations. Look at how many other RR historical groups, collections, museums, etc. have either folded, become dormant with rusting away equipment or just plain disappeared. I suggest the 'powers that be' of the above listed groups at least sit down and discuss such.

I agree with you, Mr. C. Just make it centrally located ! I don't say that just because I'm a Boston resident, put it out by Worcester for all that I care, but put it someplace where a dad or mom can pull their family in the car for an impromptu run out to it on a cold winter's night. That's how we maintain this hobby of ours, not by seperating, destroying, and hoarding equipment in far flung corners of the earth seen only by geriatric fans and potatoe farmers (and a few roosters).

I remember the original Steamtown up in Bellows Falls, Vermont. We used to drive up there about once per year or two, making the 3-1/2 hour drive from Boston in my first car, a '66 Chevy, which was unusual for kids from the Boston area. Admittedly, the place was comprised of mostly static displays, but the museum was gorgeous and the surrounding area with blueish mountains and lush green grass was truely outstanding. The only problem was that you always felt like you were alone there, which often times we were. I went there enough to know that this wasn't a one-time bad day type phenomenon, and I'm sure that if the place had had the numbers, that it would have stayed on, regardless of the passing of Mr. Blount. There are a few things which will doom a transit museum. Numbers, volunteers to keep it going, attitude towards public and infighting (a trolley museum is struggling with these big time as we speak), and location.

Steamtown - Bellows Falls, VT. August 24, 1976

Ok then tell ya what. Here's what we'll do in order to make it ALL "centrally located." We'll move MNGRR, WW&F, and the Essex Steam Tran, as well as Strasburg, Steamtown and everything else to DENVER.
THEN it'll ALL be centrally located.
WW&FRR is what it is because of WHERE it is. MANY people visit it year round.
I suggest the last two posters visit the WW&F's website and check out the forum.
Here's the thing,
WW&F only has a few pieces from EDAville, the most prominent of which is W&Q coach #3... OH, and the former EDAVILLE #10 (now WW&FRR #10- good luck getting THAT back as it's treated better there than it EVER was at Edaville OR at Pleasure Island!)
SRR in Philips also has only a few pieces once in the EDAville collection.. the rest is THEIRS!
Now,... these places did NOT spring up OVERNIGHT!
The group in Philips has been there since the 1970's and the WW&F group started out as the dream of Harry Percival back (I think) in the late 60's. While the SRR group has remained a tiny but valiant effort at keeping the SR&RL's history alive on it's original roadbed, the WW&FRR group has grown to an international organization with over 1000 members worldwide. They have faithfully authenticated railroading in the 1920's/30's on location in Maine on original roadbed. They are a THRIVING concern and to even SUGGEST moving or combining their collection with another in a different location belittles the efforts of hundreds of volunteers who keep it what it is... one of the BEST railroading experiences in the country.
While I wouldn't consider it a "tourist trap" by any means, it IS an attraction and it gets all the visitors it can handle.
It's not an amusement park, it's not "touristy" it is what it is. Pure MAGIC!

Cosmo wrote: While I wouldn't consider it a "tourist trap" by any means, it IS an attraction and it gets all the visitors it can handle.
It's not an amusement park, it's not "touristy" it is what it is. Pure MAGIC!

So is my bathroom, Cosmo.

3rdrail wrote:

Cosmo wrote: While I wouldn't consider it a "tourist trap" by any means, it IS an attraction and it gets all the visitors it can handle.
It's not an amusement park, it's not "touristy" it is what it is. Pure MAGIC!

So is my bathroom, Cosmo.

You and I have nothing further to say to each other.

Cosmo, your rants against our suggestions are uncalled for. The suggestion IS and WAS, that if the groups of NGRR are, or become, either financially strapped, lack volunteers and support, lose their leases, or otherwise fall on hard straits, that they should CONSIDER consolidation someplace in Maine. No one ever suggested Denver. Just look at what has happened to the Mohawk & Hudson Chapter NHRS, Trolleyville, and numerous other organizations in the past decade. IMHO, it's a lot better to at least discuss deficiencies, mutual help, and futures, than to have events creep up on you and lose.