Locking first cars on diesels?

(This is borne out of a SubChat thread for which I did not know the answer.)

I know that on diesels, the first car is usually locked (whether or not the engine is connected to it) unless the train has locomotives at both ends. Are there exceptions to the rule, and can you clarify generally when the first car is NOT locked (i.e., peak rush hour service)? Thanks.

During off-peak hours as a rule, always on any train whether an MU, or diesel, the first car is always locked. It can be opened as situations warrant if the need to be.

Neil:

There is no written rule that states that the first car is ALWAYS locked. During peak hours, all cars must be open. During off peak hours, there is a special instruction that states how many cars must be open depending on the train's direction and the branch. Usually, (not always) the head pair is closed so that any crewmembers who are deadheading may do so in private.

but what if its a very crowded off peak train? such as the westbound 6:49 train out of stony brook?
often times this train will have the head car closed.

i suppose its nice for the dead-headers to have a private car, but it hardly seems fair to the people who actually pay to use the RR. the fair hikes aren't intended to pay for private cars for dead-headers.

(no offense to any RR employee's, but its pretty easy to see why the RR has a PR problem sometimes. they bring it upon themselves. when you have people standing in the aisles only to see one whole car for the private use of a few people, you can only imagine how people will feel and react.)

The FRA states that whenever possile, he cab car of a push-pull train shoving must be kept closed to pasengers in non-signaled territories. The LIRR has a waiver to this rule, however, as certain other pecautions have been taken.

Most empoyees don't know of his and simply follow the special instructions which designate minimum open cars.

Clem

is this so in case of a collision with another train there will hopefully be fewer fatalities?

i guess the implication is that in non-signaled territory the risk of a collision is greater than it is in signaled territory.

just as a side question, i thought the PJ branck was signaled. for example, my station is northport. looking east from the npt station (across larkfied road) you can see a signal. does this not count?

What you are looking at east of Northport station is an interlocking signal (Duke Interlocking). Interlockings are NOT main track. Between interlockings on the PJ Branch, there are no fixed signals on main track. Example: Between Duke and Fox (Kings Park) Interlockings, there are no fixed signals. However, this territory is governed by speed control, so in essence, there are signals (cab signal indications). So to answer your question, this territory IS signalled due to speed control.

Secondly, the FRA does in fact try to protect passengers in the head unit of a consist. This applies for MU trains and push pull trains. In the event of a speed failure, MU and push pull trains must operate at a slower speed (30 MPH instead of 40 MPH) because there are passengers in the head unit.

As for a busy off peak train, crewmembers should open the appropriate number of cars to accomodate the passengers. Sometimes the special instructions dictate a certain number of cars open, but it is the common sense of the conductor to realize that if there is a special event taking place, the adequate number of cars should be opened to accomodate the passengers to be seated comfortably.

SK2MY wrote:What you are looking at east of Northport station is an interlocking signal (Duke Interlocking). Interlockings are NOT main track. Between interlockings on the PJ Branch, there are no fixed signals on main track. Example: Between Duke and Fox (Kings Park) Interlockings, there are no fixed signals. However, this territory is governed by speed control, so in essence, there are signals (cab signal indications). So to answer your question, this territory IS signalled due to speed control.

Secondly, the FRA does in fact try to protect passengers in the head unit of a consist. This applies for MU trains and push pull trains. In the event of a speed failure, MU and push pull trains must operate at a slower speed (30 MPH instead of 40 MPH) because there are passengers in the head unit.

As for a busy off peak train, crewmembers should open the appropriate number of cars to accomodate the passengers. Sometimes the special instructions dictate a certain number of cars open, but it is the common sense of the conductor to realize that if there is a special event taking place, the adequate number of cars should be opened to accomodate the passengers to be seated comfortably.

But why then do MU trains deadheading two cars have to reduce to 30 mph on mainline track if there is a speed failure, if no passengers are present in the lead two cars?

It's just how the rule is written, based on what the FRA required. The Railroad never wants to encourage closing cars to passengers unless it's absolutely required. All trains during certain times need all cars open.

Clem

I hear that there is talk that the LIRR may nolonger use Cab Cars due to the safety issue with passengers and the FRA.

One of the issues has to do with the proposed third track on the mainline. Since the LIRR wants to "reverse signal" the new track, they may not be able to use cab cars on that track. I'm still not exactly sure why but will investigate. If they intend to use cab cars on the third track, the interpretation reads that they would have to use rule 251 type signalling and have trains travel in one direction only. Of course this type of signalling is antiquated, but may be considered if they cannot use cab cars.

- Publius

Why would it matter - the main line west of Jamacia is reverse signalled and the FRA doesn't care. In fact, why should the FRA care at all? Reverse signalling is ancient and has worked just fine for decades....

H.N.I.C. wrote:I hear that there is talk that the LIRR may nolonger use Cab Cars due to the safety issue with passengers and the FRA.

One of the issues has to do with the proposed third track on the mainline. Since the LIRR wants to "reverse signal" the new track, they may not be able to use cab cars on that track. I'm still not exactly sure why but will investigate. If they intend to use cab cars on the third track, the interpretation reads that they would have to use rule 251 type signalling and have trains travel in one direction only. Of course this type of signalling is antiquated, but may be considered if they cannot use cab cars.

- Publius

With the 2 fatal accidents in CA involving cab cars I guess it is possible that the FRA outlaws them in the future.
Regarding requiring use of 251 siginaling where cabs cars are in use that makes no sense. 251 only provides signal protection for following moves. 261 provides signal protection for both following and opposing moves on the same track. If the eastbound signals on a track in 261 territory are at a passing aspect the all the westbound signals on that track will be at stop.
On a track signaled for eastbound movements in 251 territory a train traveling west will have NO signals at all, and have no way of knowing if there is a train ahead of it. How is that safer? Unless you are saying that wwhen built it will be used for Eastbound traffic only, never for westbound.

FRA realises that Cab cars are no more dangerous than a MU car or a bus or personal automobile.
There are about 300 cab cars in service in USA , each making at leat 3 trips in push mode.
so how many accidents have been there %% wise ???

In any significant impact in witch the cab car derails or gets damage the inertia will still effect the rest of the train causing harm to persons in other cars in the consist.

If cab cars were to be proven u safe the MUs would be done with. Or the lead cars would have to be always closed meaning more cars on a consist.

Excellent points Bluebelly. Here is where we differ in opinion. Although 261 provides signalling in both directions, it also allows for more frequent moves in both directions, unlike 251. 261 can by the frequency of bi-directional traffic unfortunately can lead to opposing moves on the same track by mistake and although that normally would be done by train order, mistakes can be made. An opposing move on a 251 signalled track will be far more controlled that being by train order and by the nature of the one direction operation.

Cab cars in accidents unlike MU's tend to have a 300,000 lb engine behind it which lead to more catastrophic accidents. There is a discussion ongoing about purchasing ex-Amtrak F-40's or something similar to protect the west end of diesel p/p trains. The concern at this time is asthetics. Will they find units that will fit the image of the new LIRR of the 21st Century?