Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

Judging by the overcrowding of Martz buses, I'd imagine there are a few hundred or thousand people who would take the train to NYC

Martz is not the sole bus operator that runs between the Poconos and New York. Even so, there are not enough buses operating; and the "extreme commuter" market is being squeezed.

the vast majority of Pocono residents do not commute to NYC

Mind showing us what evidence supports your anecdote? The point is commuting to the NY metro area, not NYC proper, besides. It also has to do with selling a reliable service to those who continue to drive on I-80; it can take as long as four hours in each direction from the Poconos alone to reach the Hudson River. The train will certainly beat that. Not to mention that a service like this has the potential to attract skilled workers back to NJ again to work, adding to state funds via tax dollars.

I support the idea, but respect the idea that oversight is needed. If it is to be built, let it be justified and, though NJT WILL fail in this endeavor, let it be fast enough to warrant riding

What is meant by "will fail"? If the numbers were to speak alone, even NEC service is a "failure". NJT, for the most part, is to be a contract operator, like with the Port Jervis service (and that service has added trains over the years despite that also being a "failing" operation—back in the 80s, there were far fewer trains, and there was even an RDC shuttle service between Port Jervis and Suffern, whereas all trains operate to Hoboken now).

Our state is broke. We do not have money to waste on every idea that pops up on our radar. Teachers and other workers need pay. The pension fund needs to be replenished. The transportation fund needs to be replenished. Our roads and bridges need significant repairs. Our National Guard will need to be re-equipped heavily when the conflict is finalized. Should our priorities be on a rail line of limited utility when other such concerns are present?

Sounds like you're assuming that NJ has to put up the whole of the funds itself. That is patently false. The state of PA has put up several million dollars on top of the $40 million in matching funds to get money released from TEA-21 (where the bulk of funding is to come from). NJT has to put up $40 million in its funding match and sign an operating agreement.

And of course, what are we to do with Martz Bus lines? Should we suck the lifeblood from (I think) a family owned business that provides a decent service and many good jobs to the people of a heavily depressed area?

That sounds like what the lawyers who represented Lakeland Bus when NJT inaugurated Midtown Direct service from Dover must have argued; they cried the same thing (specifically claiming "unfair competition" from a state entity) and now, NJT has to pay them money as some manner of reparations. (Funny that Lakeland's use of the free roads provided by the tax dollars of other states wasn't brought into the matter; never mind Lakeland's use of state-owned buses.) DeCamp tried the same trick when Montclair Direct came online; don't know if they're getting money as well. Martz would have less of a leg to stand on, since they would still go directly to the Port Authority Bus Terminal whereas NJT trains would go to Hoboken; but that bad precedent is in place.

Tri-State Tom wrote:Somewhere on the Cut-Off before I get planted....

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mbta/mbta-hinrai-bjc.jpg

Ahem, ANYWAY, moving further.... I WISH that picture was taken somewhere along the Cutoff!

Irish Chieftain wrote:

$300 - 350 Million just in construction to benefit possibly 2,800 people by the year 2025

If you believe that ridership "projection", then you haven't been to the Poconos lately.

Is that 2,800 per town in the Poconos? Cause even that would seem low...

Don't forget the people who change their jobs to work as an administrative assistant making $42,000 a year with great benefits in Hoboken/Newark/New York instead of working for the Petsmart, AMC Theater, or Borders in Rockaway making $28,000 a year. In 10 years those people could easily double the ridership, if not triple.

Also, don't forget all those who move from their overpriced apartments in NJ and find refuge in a community in PA. The only reason they haven't moved to PA before is the inconvenience and unavailability of a decent wage job. With the cutoff--problem solved.

cjvrr wrote:$300 - 350 Million just in construction to benefit possibly 2,800 people by the year 2025. That is pure pork in my eyes. You know that figure will ballon to 1/2 a billion in no time.

Why not give those people the $125,000 (350 mil / 2800) each to get a home closer to their jobs?

Service should go a few miles west of the Water Gap and that's it. Going to Scranton or Wilkes Barre will be a big money loser just like it was for the EL in the 1960's.

um ok, have fun buying a house in NJ that will be "closer" to the job for that sort of money. never mind the fact that no one will be ever able to use this home for anything, i.e. going to ski.

dude, if the ski resorts picked up on this, i would totally take the train to go skiing. not because i'm a railfan, but because i think that's a great idea. leave the car at home and save it from rusting a couple of years too early.

Oversight is of course needed when government funds are involved. But, cj, you are too short sighted concerning this project in view of all that has been said concerning planning, future growth of NJ and PA populations, highway congestion now and in the future, the needs of NJ people to use the highway clogged with PA cars, fuel costs (which while easing at the moment, will sure go back to 3 buck within a short time), environmental issues, inability to build more highways, and the overall economies of rail vs highway for moving people.

I understand the Martz people are in accord with this project because of escalating fuel prices, buses too often stuck in traffic (paying driver and fuel and not producing product), cost of operating in NYC. Martz is also smart enough to have seen what happened with the Portland, ME-Boston, MA Downeaster service where bus usage increased in conjuction with the train service plus grew as a feeder service to the train. It has been so good for the bus company that it is working with the rail authority to add train services north (down east) of Portland so that the bus can bring more people to the train. It has been a win win situation there and Martz foresee the possiblity of them being able to do the same in the Pocono area. If you can pay a driver and keep him and the bus at home by letting the railroad haul long distance traffic while you get a better return on your investment, why not support the train?

Another point touched upon briefly was tha politicians allowed commercial and industrial growth that were counter to the existing rail lines. NJT, like many other rail authorities, inherited systems evolved in the 19th and early 20th century designed to take people into and out of the city itself. Mass suburban growth after WWII first followed these same rail lines, but so did highway construction. By the 50's rail lines (private enterprise) had no choice but to cut back services and remove tracks, connections, whole branch lines, too. There was no need for them, there was no way to maintain or pay taxes on them; management made the right economic decision. Today, because of the highway system, 9-11 and other reasons companies have moved out of center city, and just plain population growth, the need for systems that run perpendicular to the old patterns. But at what cost and to whom? Or maybe the question is "when"? It is easy to say that the railroads were short sighted by ripping up and abandoning tracks and lines; but it was an economic decision that was best for them at the time. It is easy to say that others were short sighted for letting the railroads do what they did and to just go along with the flo of new highways; but as long as there was cheap gas and everyone was getting two or three cars per family, let the good times roll. There were planners who warned of today back then, but no one cared. Today we are where we are and can see that bad planning back then has led to todays problems. Projects like returning the Cut Off to rail passenger service, and perhaps the CNJ to Phillipsburg, the Suxxex branch and the NYS&W to Sparta for passenger services, MOM, the Southern of NJ, too, should all be looked at seriously if not for November 1, 2006 but for November 1st 2010, 2020, 2030, 2050, et al. That, cj, is why I am pro most rail, passenger rail, projects today.

um ok, have fun buying a house in NJ that will be "closer" to the job for that sort of money. never mind the fact that no one will be ever able to use this home for anything, i.e. going to ski.

dude, if the ski resorts picked up on this, i would totally take the train to go skiing. not because i'm a railfan, but because i think that's a great idea. leave the car at home and save it from rusting a couple of years too early.

Paul, If the person sells their house in PA and takes the proceeds from that sale couldn't you afford to buy a pretty nice home in NJ closer to work? Take a look at the prices in PA for homes catered to commuters, most are just a little below prices in western NJ.

Ski trains? The NYS&W tried that years ago to Vernon. While it may have been a neat novelty it was a financial flop. Skiing is only possible for what 3 maybe 4 months of the year? What about the other 8 - 9 months? Need consistant traffic to warrant the service.

hey cjvrr..you anticutoff or something? they're talking about commuter who live in scranton and work in NYC.
These studies fail to indicate Pocono travellers(skiiers, casino people-assuming its built) and the average daytripper..add them up and you have much more than 2800..

Northjerseybuff,

No I am not anti cutoff! But I am against going to Scranton at this time. Its just not justified economically. If the service was restored to a point just beyond the Water Gap, in my opinion it would catch the PA commuters but it would not extend the train transit time to an unrealistic duration. As Semper Fi stated in his logical response, just because the service is there doesn't mean it will be used. While travelling to Morristown maybe one of the selling points, how many of those people will inconvenience themselves with the walk from the station to their place of employment.

As far as skiiers. How many months is ski season? How many ski resorts are close enough and large enough to the line to justify that type fo service? With casinos, there is a point at which the gamblers market reaches a saturation point. I do not think any casino constructed in the Poconos is going to attract the cleintel that will be taking a train from NYC to gamble. Foxwoods, Mohegan Sun, AC and even Monticello, NY have saturated that market.

Sounds like you're assuming that NJ has to put up the whole of the funds itself. That is patently false. The state of PA has put up several million dollars on top of the $40 million in matching funds to get money released from TEA-21 (where the bulk of funding is to come from). NJT has to put up $40 million in its funding match and sign an operating agreement.

Irish,

As SemperFi stated the State of NJ is broke. The TEA-21 money is only going to come to NJ if our financial woes are rectified. If the Feds don't like how the State is doing that we won't get ANY TEA-21 funds. The transportation trust fund is broke too, so matching money will be hard to come by for any project. Heck you should see the song and dance that NJDOT does when they have a $1,000 extra on a construction project. Shouldn't those TEA-21 monies be funneled to safety improvements at this point. The Cutoff restoration an extension into PA will be a big money loser from day one. Wouldn't it be more wise to spend that money on replacing a deficient bridge either on our highways or our railways?

But, cj, you are too short sighted concerning this project in view of all that has been said concerning planning, future growth of NJ and PA populations, highway congestion now and in the future, the needs of NJ people to use the highway clogged with PA cars, fuel costs (which while easing at the moment, will sure go back to 3 buck within a short time), environmental issues, inability to build more highways, and the overall economies of rail vs highway for moving people.

Henry6,

You have called me on this before. As some of you may know I am a traffic engineer for the County in which I live. While you may think I have ulterior motives, I feel I have some experience in justifying transportation improvements. Every project must be justified. My complaint isn't the Cutoff project itself but the extension to the hinterlands of PA. Going an extra 60- 80 miles to Scranton therby adding an hour to a train's transit time to serve perhaps a few hundred people is not justified.

You have listed a number of very easily justifiable projects, such as the MOM service, the CNJ service perhaps. Again the numbers, economically need to show the servie will work. Spending $350,000,000 to serve 2,800 commuters is not. I thought of this last night is it 2,800 trips? or 2,800 separate users. If it is daily 2,800 users that really is only 1,400 commuters. You count the heads twice, once in the AM and once in the PM. So now each person could get $250,000 to go away.

One more thing there is a mantra in traffic engineering stolen from Field of Dreams ," "if you build it they will come". So I understand very well that if you extend train service into PA, people will move to PA. But that just adds to suburban sprawl, which adds to local traffic, which requires more roads, etc. By limiting the number of added lanes to a highway, or limiting train service, or not installing new roadways, don't people tend to move where the convenience already exists?

As far as planning 20 -30 years out, it is nearly impossible to do so to any decent degree, economic, political, and population changes are too erratic to do so. I have seen plenty of traffic reports from the 1970s that were totally FUBARed by the early to mid 1990's.

CV the civil (traffic) Engineer from NJ

cjvrr wrote:

Sounds like you're assuming that NJ has to put up the whole of the funds itself. That is patently false. The state of PA has put up several million dollars on top of the $40 million in matching funds to get money released from TEA-21 (where the bulk of funding is to come from). NJT has to put up $40 million in its funding match and sign an operating agreement.

Irish,

As SemperFi stated the State of NJ is broke. The TEA-21 money is only going to come to NJ if our financial woes are rectified. If the Feds don't like how the State is doing that we won't get ANY TEA-21 funds. The transportation trust fund is broke too, so matching money will be hard to come by for any project. Heck you should see the song and dance that NJDOT does when they have a $1,000 extra on a construction project. Shouldn't those TEA-21 monies be funneled to safety improvements at this point. The Cutoff restoration an extension into PA will be a big money loser from day one. Wouldn't it be more wise to spend that money on replacing a deficient bridge either on our highways or our railways?

Chris,

ANY new project concerning rail service will be a big money loser from day one! Most, if not all lines that NJT currently operates are money losers even with increased passenger ridership. Why do you think NJT gets subsidies from the state? Why do you think Amtrak needs gov't subsidies of more then $1.8 billion just to sustain a "certain state of good repair"?? All passenger service throughout the country are big money loosers..Railroad infastructure costs multi-millions annually just to sustain status quo.. That is something politicians and other people just don't understand.

Going to Scranton could very well be justified, as there are a number of large organizations such as Prudential that has moved out there. Providing a link between New York and Scranton now is more justified.

Another point about NYSW service to Vernon as I saw you posted about that. In the 90's it was a flop. There's no doubt about it. So many years later, Vernon has a high amount of ski traffic going through it's town, main street is being built and finalized and a redevelopment initative has been undertaken. What might not have worked then, will most likely work now. Bottom line? You can't compare the past trend in passenger service and say the same thing will apply because the world we live in is much different.

cjvrr wrote:

But, cj, you are too short sighted concerning this project in view of all that has been said concerning planning, future growth of NJ and PA populations, highway congestion now and in the future, the needs of NJ people to use the highway clogged with PA cars, fuel costs (which while easing at the moment, will sure go back to 3 buck within a short time), environmental issues, inability to build more highways, and the overall economies of rail vs highway for moving people.

Henry6,

You have called me on this before. As some of you may know I am a traffic engineer for the County in which I live. While you may think I have ulterior motives, I feel I have some experience in justifying transportation improvements. Every project must be justified. My complaint isn't the Cutoff project itself but the extension to the hinterlands of PA. Going an extra 60- 80 miles to Scranton therby adding an hour to a train's transit time to serve perhaps a few hundred people is not justified.

You have listed a number of very easily justifiable projects, such as the MOM service, the CNJ service perhaps. Again the numbers, economically need to show the servie will work. Spending $350,000,000 to serve 2,800 commuters is not. I thought of this last night is it 2,800 trips? or 2,800 separate users. If it is daily 2,800 users that really is only 1,400 commuters. You count the heads twice, once in the AM and once in the PM. So now each person could get $250,000 to go away.

One more thing there is a mantra in traffic engineering stolen from Field of Dreams ," "if you build it they will come". So I understand very well that if you extend train service into PA, people will move to PA. But that just adds to suburban sprawl, which adds to local traffic, which requires more roads, etc. By limiting the number of added lanes to a highway, or limiting train service, or not installing new roadways, don't people tend to move where the convenience already exists?

As far as planning 20 -30 years out, it is nearly impossible to do so to any decent degree, economic, political, and population changes are too erratic to do so. I have seen plenty of traffic reports from the 1970s that were totally FUBARed by the early to mid 1990's.

CV the civil (traffic) Engineer from NJ

Block,

I agree. NJT must have some magic formula though.

Does anyone know what the current average subsidy per commuter for the entire NJT rail system? What about for specific lines? How does it compare to other commuter railroads?

If you can show me that the per commuter subsidy cost for the Scranton user once in service would be the same as the average for the entire system then perhaps I would change my mind about service to Scranton. I seriously doubt you would hit that number for service on the Cutoff ending just beyond the Water Gap (which I support).

uzplayer,

Even if a handfull of "large organizations" move to Scranton how many commuters would that add? If anything moving those businesses to Scranton would help the local economy in that region but wouldn't add anything to the Scranton to NJ or NYC commuter stream.

As far as NYS&W service. I am for commuter service on that line but not for ski trains. I was specifically referencing ski trains service and that alone is no justification for train service. I however disagree that this service should go to Vernon or even Sparta. End the service in Newfoundland or Stockholm. Freight train service takes 1 hour between Vernon and Stockholm with the current 40mph speed limit. With the curves and grades on the line I doubt you could have passenger train speeds much higher than that. It only takes 15-20 minutes to drive between Vernon and Stockholm.

And before anyone brings up the point that Vernon and points north and west are growing, the Highlands Act pretty much killed any new development within the Highlands Preservation Area. So the population (i.e. traffic) will grow much more slowly in those areas. Monmouth and Ocean Counties have no such restrictions.

Cvrr,

I agree with you there on the NYSW service only going as far as Newfoundland. Maybe 10-15 years down the road they could build a small storage facility somewhere near Butler and extend some commuter trains to Newfoundland rather then going all the way up to Sparta and Vernon. You are right in that the ROW is pretty circuitous and time consuming with curves and heavy grades west of Stockholm.

OK, CJ, if you are a traffic engineer then are you the one who told us that if you build a turn lane at an intersection to alleviate congestion it in turn builds more congestion?

That aside, you seem to feel that NJ is bearing the whole of this project, which it is not. The state of Pennsylvania, the counties of Monroe and Lackawanna, and the Federal government are all putting a lot of money into it.

You state that the service could go to "west of the Gap" and let PA drives get to the station. That is not good marketing but beyone that traffic and population patterns in the Poconos suggest otherwise. Plus the weather "on top" often makes a local train station more, much more desirable.

And another point I have made that hasn't been acknowledged is that NJT is committed only to Stroudsburg at this point. Any train that runs beyond there is under the auspicies of the operating authority (the two counties agency) and not operated by NJT. That means that the actual operation of any train west of Stroudsburg has yet to be contracted for. NJT could be the operator, but so could you or me or any railroad and qualified group who either bids or negotiates or contracts to do the service. Service west of Stroudsburg, in other words, is not on the shoulders of NJT but rather the aforementioned Pennsylvania groups. I believe the equipment to be used for the service will be new equipment purchased through these agencies and the service and not NJT contracts direct through the State of NJ.

And back on the subject of marketing, yes we keep talking in terms of commuters from PA going to north Jersey and the city. But there are reverse moves to be exploited as well including the ski trains and other tourist specific opportunities at other times of the year.

And to be completely honest with all of you, I am involved with a group working to bring rail passenger service back to upstate NY...Binghamton and the Southern Tier. Preliminary surveys several years ago suggested this routing as being the best but most expensive because of the lack of track. The Cut Off project fills in the need of track east of Scranton, and especially through NJ, that our survey told us we needed. Train service from Hoboken to Scranton is a first step in our being able to reach our goals and bring money to the table to help the situation as a whole. One survey is in progress right now through New York state agencies. Upon completion of that, we will be able to see what our next steps will have to be.

The cutoff could work out like the Metro North West of the Hudson Service in which once the NJT train comes to Suffern from Hoboken the MN crews could operate the train. I'm sure in PA they can train the people there to operate the equipment and collect tickets once the train from Hoboekn arrives in E Stroudsburg.

I know I wouldn't ride the train esp NJT equipment for 3 hrs! But if I were to comute everyday I would limit it to 2 hrs one way. I don't like the idea of sitting on Rt 80 for 4 hrs one way or in an NJT Train for a 3 hr Scranton-Hoboken Commute. I believe the Phoebe Snow took 3hrs and 15 min between Hoboken to Scranton. I refuse to waste 6 hrs of my day on Rt 80/46 or NJT train esp sittign in thsoe uncomfotable seats in a cramped Comet 4 or 5 or even a bi level.

Unless it's an Amtrak coach w club car then ok but the max I'll ride in NJT Equipment is 2 hrs one way. That's 4 hrs total stuck in an NJT Train. Let's not forget the delays people.

NJT tends to be full of them and even big delays as well. I've seen NJT Trains delayed 45 min to an hour. Add that o nto the 3 hr and 15 min commute a few days out of the month and that'll ruin it. No tiem for family and friends or even for you.

As far as the NYSW Service is concerned...What part of NO Don't you understand from the NIMBYs. Instead of wasting your time in dealing with these ignorant fools NJT shoul let the service go no further then New Foundland NJ and build a P/R Station with a small yard and passing sidings not too far from the old passenger depot. That'll be good enough since it's close to Rt 23 and Green Pond Rd vicinity. Butler and New Foundland want the service so give it to them rather then wasting time and cash on Sparta.

Of all the time and $$$ wasted this thing could've been on line with upgraded track, passing sidings and new stations.