Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

Going to Wilkes-Barre would have to be via either the former CNJ or LVRR (if they ever re-extend the RVL into the Lehigh Valley, this would be a natural re-extension). Going via the DL&W would be a far longer journey…

As for McCain, he herein has shown himself to be an enemy of passenger rail in general, not just Amtrak. That, to me, paints him as an enemy of this country's economic well-being.

There are track alternatives to get from Scranton to Wilkes Barre but there has been no studies done beyond knowing that there are people in the Wilkes Barre area who would like to take a train to NYC. However, in studies done in years past, those in Wilkes Barre area preferred a CNJ-LV route through Allentown and Bethleham rather than going 30 miles north to Scranton and then east. Accomodating Wilkes Barre riders aside from their desire for a train has not been a hard core part of any discussions as yet.

Just remembered an alternative for Wilkes-Barre, that being the former Wilkes-Barre and Eastern…but that was part of the recently deceased and redeveloped NYSW network in Monroe and Luzerne Counties. Too bad; this would have facilitated rail service for places like Bartonsville and Tannersville, which are several miles away from the former DL&W main line, not to mention Pocono Pines and Blakeslee…

A study was performed a few years ago on the best route from Wilkes-Barre to Scranton. The distance is closer to 20 miles. I believe four different routes were evaluated, both active and now abandoned, with the preferred route being the D&H /CP.
Any traces of the WB&E between Wilkes Barre and Suscon in Pittston Twp. are now almost completely obliterated. My grandfather was an engineer on the WB&E in it's day and would take my father along to drop
him off to go fishing in the Springbook area. My father commented several times that he could walk faster than the train could travel. I could not imagine the cost involved in using such a route.
The CNJ/LVRR right of way area outside of Ashley appears to have been
strip mined and also had a mine fire up on the mountain several years ago- another extremely costly endeavor. The only other alternative would be the Lehigh Valley (now R&N) out of Pittston to get to Allentown.

To the earlier poster. Since when did John McCain call this "a pork project?" You know something that we don't?

NJTRailfan wrote:Since when did John McCain call this "a pork project?"

The poster was referring to an article posted in this thread earlier. See article for details.

$300 - 350 Million just in construction to benefit possibly 2,800 people by the year 2025. That is pure pork in my eyes. You know that figure will ballon to 1/2 a billion in no time.

Why not give those people the $125,000 (350 mil / 2800) each to get a home closer to their jobs?

Service should go a few miles west of the Water Gap and that's it. Going to Scranton or Wilkes Barre will be a big money loser just like it was for the EL in the 1960's.

Sorry CJ, but population growth, increasing congestion, passenger rail service acceptance, fuel costs and supplies, future needs all contradict your negative assessment. Comparing the freight needs of the Erie Lackawanna of 1970 (and the 1970 highway building and gas suppply) with the social and business changes of today does not support your conclusion.

henry6,

I am not comparing the EL's freight but EL's passenger service back then. Henry, I have seen your posts on here for over two years now, and you have never met a proposed passenger service you couldn't justify. While I like your vest for promotion of these services, when does it become too much? When does the expense outway the need?

To me $350 million (plus) to benefit 2,800 people in 2025 is not justified. Are all 2,800 people riding all the way to Scranton? I doubt it. If the number was much higher say 10,000, or 28,000 then I would say sure. I am not against the service being needed some day but the numbers need to be much better to justify going all the way to Scranton now.

Not trying to sway anyone's opinion, just stating my own.

Comparing EL freight vs passenger is not what was meant. The statement meant that back in 1970 railroad philosophies were to dump passenger operations in favor of freight operation. This was because new highways were prevalent, the airline industry looked very promising, and gas was cheap and plentiful (real scare was not until 1973 and after). Therefore there was, in the context of that era's business and social climate, nothing untoward about the EL, or any railroad, getting out of the passenger business. We look back on that today perhaps as short sighted by both the railroads and the governments, but that was the reasoning.

Today much has changed. Gas is not as plentiful nor as cheap; airlines have cut back drastically in their operations and services so that smaller planes are used at lesser airports, some services are gone completely, and the major carriers are near or in bankruptcy; the highways are congested and expensive to replace and maintain, there are places (like NJ) where it is impossible to build any more highway milage, and the pollution is dangerous to say the least. Planners know they have to steer away from highways and not rely on air transportation as the only means of moving people. They therefore are suggesting further use of rail capacities for passengers. Most all new (past 10 or fewer years) rail passenger services have proven somewhat successful from the Los Angeles commuter services, to the Maine Downeast service. As I mentioned, even the NJT Midtown Direct service started out ahead of where planners had thought and is still strong.

Getting to the 2800 proposed daily passengers you mention: much has changed since that survey was done. More people have moved into the Pocono area and to the west of Scranton who commute to the NY Metropolitan area (North Jersey to NYC); the highways have become more congested (I80, I78) so that even those who live in North Jersey can't use them effeciently; population growth continues; there are also more markets to be tapped by the service than just commuters and Scrantonians--there is a need for service into the area for recreation, etc. too. Based on the apparent present needs, the needs on the horizon, the successes of other new rail passenger services, there is a very strong indication that this will be a very viable project and worth the monies in todays dollars.

This is a project as much, if not more so, for the future than for today. And since NJ and NJT aren't footing more of the bill than east of the Delaware (East Stroudsburg) NJ taxpayers need not worry about its out of pocket costs. In fact the costs of not doing it are greater. And, by the way, I am sure there are some rail passenger services that I would not justify. Just right now it is the right thing to do for the future.

$300 - 350 Million just in construction to benefit possibly 2,800 people by the year 2025

If you believe that ridership "projection", then you haven't been to the Poconos lately.

hey cjvrr..you anticutoff or something? they're talking about commuter who live in scranton and work in NYC.
These studies fail to indicate Pocono travellers(skiiers, casino people-assuming its built) and the average daytripper..add them up and you have much more than 2800..

Somewhere on the Cut-Off before I get planted....

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mbta/mbta-hinrai-bjc.jpg

2800 people might still be accurate if you consider that very few people use NJT to get to destinations that are not NYC (at least in the northern half of the system).

The utility of NJT is very limited for people not commuting to New York by the poor planning of our politicians who have allowed industrial and commercial complexes to be developed in areas not at all convenient to mass transit.

Judging by the overcrowding of Martz buses, I'd imagine there are a few hundred or thousand people who would take the train to NYC. But the vast majority of Pocono residents do not commute to NYC. There are very few major employers within decent walking distance of NJT train stations along the Boonton Line or the Morris and Essex Line. Perhaps a few in Morristown, and hopefully a few more now that Newark is more convenient with the light rail, but is this really going to be enough to justify a service?

I support the idea, but respect the idea that oversight is needed. If it is to be built, let it be justified and, though NJT WILL fail in this endeavor, let it be fast enough to warrant riding.

Our state is broke. We do not have money to waste on every idea that pops up on our radar. Teachers and other workers need pay. The pension fund needs to be replenished. The transportation fund needs to be replenished. Our roads and bridges need significant repairs. Our National Guard will need to be re-equipped heavily when the conflict is finalized. Should our priorities be on a rail line of limited utility when other such concerns are present? And of course, what are we to do with Martz Bus lines? Should we suck the lifeblood from (I think) a family owned business that provides a decent service and many good jobs to the people of a heavily depressed area?

I support the idea, but there are questions which should be answered before spending money which does not exist.

cjvrr wrote:To me $350 million (plus) to benefit 2,800 people in 2025 is not justified.

2,800 people? Heck, depending on which study you want to consider, Mom is projecting 10,000 to 22,000 boardings (granted that is accounting for both directions) and MOM is only 40(?) miles of track.

I still question some of these cost estimates they throw around. Besides the actual re-engineering and direct ROW reconstruction costs, they are obviously counting the hiring of additional personnel at all levels, whole new trains of new equipment, as well as new structures. I think they inflate those numbers to squash the ideas in the eyes of the public.