Hoosier State Discussion (both Amtrak and Iowa Pacific)

If Amtrak made the Cardinal a daily train then it would be a route over 750 miles in length

Four days to go as of this writing.

But wouldn't it be sport if 'Passenger Extras 1850 and 1851' continued to operate handling equipment between Lumber St and Beech Grove?

'Only in Government'.

On that note of only in government (and this is WAAAY away from any rail related issue), think about the possible repeal of the 2.5% tax on medical devices under ACA 10. Independent of any thoughts that this could be a 'let 'em have it' bargaining chip to end the Shutdown, think for a moment that to a great part this is simply 'Government taxing Government'. So many of the users of the devices covered are on some form of publicly funded or subsidized health care (Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Armed Forces, TRICARE, premium assistance under ACA 10) and the cost of these devices will simply be passed on to the end user (the patient) these assistance payments will simply be higher than otherwise. Therefore, that tax is greatly 'Government taxing Government'.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Four days to go as of this writing.

But wouldn't it be sport if 'Passenger Extras 1850 and 1851' continued to operate handling equipment between Lumber St and Beech Grove?

'Only in Government'.

On that note of only in government (and this is WAAAY away from any rail related issue), think about the possible repeal of the 2.5% tax on medical devices under ACA 10. Independent of any thoughts that this could be a 'let 'em have it' bargaining chip to end the Shutdown, think for a moment that to a great part this is simply 'Government taxing Government'. So many of the users of the devices covered are on some form of publicly funded or subsidized health care (Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Armed Forces, TRICARE, premium assistance under ACA 10) and the cost of these devices will simply be passed on to the end user (the patient) these assistance payments will simply be higher than otherwise. Therefore, that tax is greatly 'Government taxing Government'.

Way far away indeed.

But the makers said they were unable to pass along the tax to their customers, so you seem to be wrong. That's why they're complaining.

StLouSteve wrote:Recall seeing news article today that Illinois has reached a funding agreement with Amtrak leaving Indiana as the last state that has not reached an accord.

Yes, but according to reports, IN DOT is still negotiating with Amtrak. That is more than I would have expected to happen a few months ago. Since IN DOT got a very late start on the negotiations, a temporary agreement to keep the Hoosier State running at the current 4 days a week schedule may be the next step. There is a possibility that IN will not fund the HS as a daily service, but also provide capital funding for track improvements with the goal of increasing ridership so the subsidy can be reduced. Or IN DOT may go with 4 days a week service that sticks with the Cardinal schedule as the minimum to keep the local politicians happy.

When the 2008 PRIIA act was passed, how many were thinking that a number of states would pass on providing the full subsidy amount and that some corridor services would go away at the 5 year deadline? 18 out of 19 states have signed and agreed to provide more funding, so only the Hoosier State is left in the balance.

I heard something interesting from someone who I consider a reliable source ... Indiana DOT would like Amtrak to pay them a certain amount of money for each non-revenue car and/or locomotive Amtrak deadheads to/from Beech Grove shop on the Hoosier State.

I can certainly see the logic behind their request.

That clause would be assuming they reach an agreement? How about Amtrak closes Beech Grove and moves those jobs to a state that would be happy to have them - without paying a state government that loves highways and hates Amtrak for moving their own deadhead equipment... I'm sure the Beech Grove property will look great paved over with INDOT highway
vehicles idling all around.

So Indiana's pro-rail thought is doubling up fees to operate a service that is already hurting monetarily. Bravo.

jhdeasy wrote:I heard something interesting from someone who I consider a reliable source ... Indiana DOT would like Amtrak to pay them a certain amount of money for each non-revenue car and/or locomotive Amtrak deadheads to/from Beech Grove shop on the Hoosier State.

I can certainly see the logic behind their request.

I guess IN doesn't want to subsidize Amtrak's equipment moves, and pay the bare minimum required for the passengers...

MikeEspee wrote:That clause would be assuming they reach an agreement? How about Amtrak closes Beech Grove and moves those jobs to a state that would be happy to have them

That's a reasonable reaction but it's not easy to find an empty and large backshop, then sell the one you have. CP is going through this very process now after Calgary citizens complained about diesel exhaust. CP shuttered Alyth diesel shop and is moving out. It'll be interesting to see what process they go through to relocate such work.

There's not a lot of empty heavy repair shops. Sayre was torn down, Colonie was fire damaged. What does that leave? Watertown B&M and some former Frisco shop in Arkansas? You'd have to build a billion dollar shop somewhere.

Tadman wrote:

MikeEspee wrote:That clause would be assuming they reach an agreement? How about Amtrak closes Beech Grove and moves those jobs to a state that would be happy to have them

That's a reasonable reaction but it's not easy to find an empty and large backshop, then sell the one you have. CP is going through this very process now after Calgary citizens complained about diesel exhaust. CP shuttered Alyth diesel shop and is moving out. It'll be interesting to see what process they go through to relocate such work.

There's not a lot of empty heavy repair shops. Sayre was torn down, Colonie was fire damaged. What does that leave? Watertown B&M and some former Frisco shop in Arkansas? You'd have to build a billion dollar shop somewhere.

Tad's point is well-taken. Beech Grove isn't the Baliimore Colts. They can't just load up the moving vans and hightail it out of town in the middle of the night. Whenever two parties negotiate, each will generally try to get the most favorable deal they can--and there's nothing wrong with that. Also, we shouldn't get too hung up on details of negotiating positions that may slip out. They may bear no relation to the final deal. I agree with Mr. Figgatt that the remarkable thing is that IN is negotiating at all.

BTW,as a possible addition to Tad's list, I think BNSF's West Burlington shops are mostly empty these days (although is that only a loco shop, or are there car sops there, too?)

jhdeasy wrote:I heard something interesting from someone who I consider a reliable source ... Indiana DOT would like Amtrak to pay them a certain amount of money for each non-revenue car and/or locomotive Amtrak deadheads to/from Beech Grove shop on the Hoosier State.

The study commissioned by IN DOT covered this. The study states the train can earn revenue by charging Amtrak for deadhead equipment moves to Beech Grove, projecting about $90K in additional revenue for 100 to 150 deadhead moves a year. If IN provides $3+ million in annual operating subsidy for a daily Hoosier State and starts a capital improvement program for incremental track upgrades, I think Amtrak would be ok in paying $90K a year for deadheading equipment on the HS. A bargain compared to occasionally running dedicated trains for equipment moves.

Edit: correction to my post from several days ago: "There is a possibility that IN will not ONLY fund the HS as a daily service, but"

Station Aficionado wrote:

Tadman wrote:

MikeEspee wrote:That clause would be assuming they reach an agreement? How about Amtrak closes Beech Grove and moves those jobs to a state that would be happy to have them

That's a reasonable reaction but it's not easy to find an empty and large backshop, then sell the one you have. CP is going through this very process now after Calgary citizens complained about diesel exhaust. CP shuttered Alyth diesel shop and is moving out. It'll be interesting to see what process they go through to relocate such work.

There's not a lot of empty heavy repair shops. Sayre was torn down, Colonie was fire damaged. What does that leave? Watertown B&M and some former Frisco shop in Arkansas? You'd have to build a billion dollar shop somewhere.

Tad's point is well-taken. Beech Grove isn't the Baliimore Colts. They can't just load up the moving vans and hightail it out of town in the middle of the night. Whenever two parties negotiate, each will generally try to get the most favorable deal they can--and there's nothing wrong with that. Also, we shouldn't get too hung up on details of negotiating positions that may slip out. They may bear no relation to the final deal. I agree with Mr. Figgatt that the remarkable thing is that IN is negotiating at all.

BTW,as a possible addition to Tad's list, I think BNSF's West Burlington shops are mostly empty these days (although is that only a loco shop, or are there car sops there, too?)

Outside possibility: buy the CAF shops in Hornell, NY once the Viewliner order is complete. Otherwise... Shoreham (Minneapolis) is more or less empty, but it's mostly just empty land. May as well just build a fully modern repair shop in Chicago while you are at it, and save the deadheading.

What does the Beach Grove shop provide that couldn't be done in other amtrak yards in Chicago, Washington, Bear, DE ect...

Well, for one thing, the Bear, DE facility can't handle Superliner equipment.

afiggatt wrote:

jhdeasy wrote:I heard something interesting from someone who I consider a reliable source ... Indiana DOT would like Amtrak to pay them a certain amount of money for each non-revenue car and/or locomotive Amtrak deadheads to/from Beech Grove shop on the Hoosier State.

The study commissioned by IN DOT covered this. The study states the train can earn revenue by charging Amtrak for deadhead equipment moves to Beech Grove, projecting about $90K in additional revenue for 100 to 150 deadhead moves a year. If IN provides $3+ million in annual operating subsidy for a daily Hoosier State and starts a capital improvement program for incremental track upgrades, I think Amtrak would be ok in paying $90K a year for deadheading equipment on the HS. A bargain compared to occasionally running dedicated trains for equipment moves.

Edit: correction to my post from several days ago: "There is a possibility that IN will not ONLY fund the HS as a daily service, but"

This is a recent turn of events. Previously, there was a section of the route owned by CN. They had a minimum axle requirement for the route. As such, it was really a no brainer for Amtrak to DH equipment since you needed to meet the requirement. However, CSX acquired the line and the minimum axle count has been lifted.

Perfect timing, right?

Beech Grove is a heavy repair and rebuild backshop. It is an absolutely enormous facility capable of completely remanufacturing anything that Amtrak has on the roster. It has performed assembly from kits of new locomotives as well as contract rebuilding of commuter carrier locomotives.

If you wanted to replace it, it could be done, but you'd have to have a serious plan in place. Some work could be shifted to Bear and Wilmington as well as the lighter shops in Albany and Chicago. Some work would have to be outsourced to heavy rebuild shops like NRE. The commuter carriers would likely have to figure out where their heavy work would be done now.

I'm not saying it can't be done (and maybe it's not a bad idea - the buildings are ancient) but it's not like moving a light repair shop. It's the backbone of the system. This is clearly demonstrated by the 3-5 cars ferried in and out of the shops every few days on the Indy trains.