Empire Builder leads long distance OT performance

Amtrak Endpoint On Time Performance, May 2004

Long Distance Trains:
SERVICE....OPERATED....LATE..ON TIME PCT...GOAL
1. Empire Builder..124......24.....80.6%.....70.0% (Chicago, IL-Portland, OR/Seattle, WA)
2. City of NO.......62......18.....71.0%.....70.0% (Chicago, IL-New Orleans, LA)
3. Crescent.........62......26.....58.1%.....70.0% (New York, NY-New Orleans, LA)
4. SW Chief.........62......27.....56.5%.....70.0% (Chicago, IL-Los Angeles, CA)
5. Texas Eagle......62......35.....43.5%.....70.0% (Chicago, IL-San Antonio, TX)
6. Three Rivers.....62......38.....38.7%.....70.0% (New York, NY-Chicago, IL)
7. Auto Train.......62......39.....37.1%.....70.0% (Lorton, VA-Sanford, FL)
8. Carolinian.......62......41.....33.9%.....85.0% (New York, NY-Charlotte, NC)
9. Cardinal.........27......18.....33.3%.....70.0% (New York, NY-Chicago, IL)
10. Cal Zephyr.......62......44.....29.0%.....70.0% (Chicago, IL-Emeryville, CA)
11. Lake Shore Ltd..123......92.....25.2%.....70.0% (Boston, MA/New York, NY-Chicago, IL)
12. Capitol Ltd......62......49.....21.0%.....70.0% (Washington, DC-Chicago, IL)
13. Cst Starlight....62......56......9.7%.....70.0% (Seattle, WA-Los Angeles, CA)
14. Silver Svc......124.....114......8.1%.....70.0% (New York, NY-Miami, FL, 3 trains)
15. Sunset Ltd.......27......27......0.0%.....70.0% (Orlando, FL-Los Angeles, CA)

Short distance or corridor trains (not ranked)
SERVICE....OPERATED....LATE..ON TIME PCT...GOAL
Acela Express...723.....187.....74.1%.....94.0% (Boston, MA-Washington, DC)
Capitols........677......69.....89.8%.....85.0% (Auburn, CA-Sacramento-Oakland-San Jose)
Cascades........341.....172.....49.6%.....85.0% (Vancouver, BC-Seattle-Portland-Eugene)
Clocker/Keyst...604.....139.....77.0%.....90.0% (New York-Philadelphia-Harrisburg)
Downeaster......248......28.....88.7%.....85.0% (Boston, MA-Portland, ME)
Empire Svc......708.....232.....67.2%.....85.0% (New York, NY-Syracuse-Niagara Falls)
Heartland Flyer..62......14.....77.4%.....85.0% (Fort Worth, TX-Oklahoma City, OK)
Hiawatha........424......49.....88.4%.....85.0% (Chicago, IL-Milwaukee, WI)
Hoosier State....35......18.....48.6%.....85.0% (Indianapolis, IN-Chicago, IL)
Il/MO Corridor..307.....157.....48.9%.....85.0% (Chicago-Quincy/Carbondale/Kansas City)
Metroliner......132......34.....74.2%.....94.0% (New York, NY-Washington, DC)
Michigan........308.....163.....47.1%.....85.0% (Chicago, IL to Michigan Points)
Pac Surfliner...721......68.....90.6%.....85.0% (San Luis Obispo-Los Angeles-San Diego)
Pennsylvanian....62......25.....59.7%.....85.0% (New York, NY- Pittsburgh, PA)
Piedmont.........62......30.....51.6%.....85.0% (Raleigh, NC-Charlotte, NC)
Regional.......1692.....395.....76.7%.....90.0% (Boston/Springfield, MA-Washington, DC)
San Joaquins....371......91.....75.5%.....85.0% (Oakland, CA-Bakersfield, CA)

ALL............8522....2519.....70.4%.....85.0%

That is a shocking statistic...the Sunset Limited has never been on time even once

What's so shocking? Note that these figures don't say how late. There are commuter trains that are consistently late, but people don't get "shocked" by it...nor are they "shocked" when other modes of transportation are also late.

What's the source for these figures? Would have been courteous to link to the source instead of copy-pasting.

Irish Chieftain wrote:What's so shocking? Note that these figures don't say how late. There are commuter trains that are consistently late, but people don't get "shocked" by it...nor are they "shocked" when other modes of transportation are also late.

What's the source for these figures? Would have been courteous to link to the source instead of copy-pasting.

Well, I have seen the figures as well. They aren't publicly available, but are obtained from internal Amtrak documents, to which certain people have access.

As for how late the Sunset has been, certain people have been tracking, and let's just say, you don't want to know. Well...if you do...hours and hours and hours would be a good start. A recent Sunset Limited arrived in LA over 16 hours late, which was after the eastbound was to have departed. That wound up departing 7 hours late. While most trips aren't that bad, they still aren't any good.

Eastbound, the train is scheduled to arrive in San Antonio at 4:56, and the Texas Eagle departs at 8:00. That's over three hours to make the connection (otherwise, through passengers get bussed to catch up to the train). In the past month, I think it successfully made the connection only once. A second time, a week or so ago, it arrived in time to make the connection, but then the Eagle was screwed up and turned in Fort Worth due to excessive lateness resulting from bad weather in Illinois (and possibly a UP derailment), meaning those pax got bussed anyway.

They aren't publicly available

Then it's gossip. The chain of accountability is broken. No matter how many "certain people" get invoked, you're still left with breathless bulletins and unverifiable claims from unaccountable sources.

Surely we can wait for the figures to be released publicly, here.

As for the Sunset, when it was running Chicago-LA, I remember one of the reasons for lateness quite clearly. The train gets stopped by the border with Mexico (the Rio Grande) and the train gets searched for illegals that may have jumped on. I was on such a trip in 1988.

Mr. Fels, I suppose every time you read a newspaper article that quotes a source "speaking on the condition of anonymity," you throw the whole paper away? Just curious.

Throw the paper away? For the sake of one anonymously-sourced article? That would be foolish.

It is important to remember that newspapers have chains of accountability that forums like this one lack. The newspaper has a physical address and a listing in the phone book. It lists the editors' names in its masthead. We can know exactly who wrote, or least who edited, everything we read. And then there's that crazy little thing called libel. Legal liability tends to concentrate the mind and encourage reportorial rigor. So when I read anonymously sourced material in the newspaper, I give it some credence.

No comparable set of checks and balances exists on this forum. So unless there's a public source cited, one we can all check, best to flag any unsourceable item as gossip and refocus the discussion on fact.

Let's be clear: I see nothing wrong with posting under alias. Never have. It's simply that when you post under alias, you simply forfeit the right to say, "Take my word for it."

Wow, the Empire Builder beats the Acela Express in On-time performance - I bet that makes the Honchos running the AE and NEC real happy!!! Im sure they use different "on time measurements" but its all relative in my eyes. 10min late minutes might be considered "on time" for AE, while on time for EB might mean within "45 min to a hour or even more".

I was quite surprised by mattfels mention of "gossip" and lack of accountability and posting under alias.......in regard to this topic and the on time numbers. Its not possible in many cases for "those in the know" to post their personal information and give the "accountability" you desire. Posting in a public forum like this, private "privy" internal infromation could lead one into a sticky gray area with regard to divulging company information, and could get one into very hot water with their superiors. In many companies, the railroads in this instance, that goes against privacy clauses signed either at hiring or during the course of employement, and their could be significant penalties for that.

This IS a forum, NOT a newspaper, giving sources where possible is accepted and understood as "good posting manners" but in some cases, its simply not possible. Some people are putting themselves out on a limb in posting and discussing at this forum, and thats a fact that shouldn't be forgotten and should be respected instead of questioned when they post info. If not, well, then those people simply aren't going to post anymore, (why should they?) and that sort of defeats the purpose of a public forum and discussion....

Just my penny and a half.....

Jtgshu wrote:I was quite surprised by . . . mention of "gossip" and lack of accountability and posting under alias.......in regard to this topic and the on time numbers.

Why? Gossip is gossip. Doesn't matter what the topic is or how many "numbers" are in the post.

It's not possible in many cases for "those in the know" to post their personal information and give the "accountability" you desire.

So? That's their problem, not mine.

Posting in a public forum like this, private "privy" internal infromation could lead one into a sticky gray area with regard to divulging company information, and could get one into very hot water with their superiors.

Once again, that's their problem. The solution is easy: Don't post "private privy internal" information. Sticky gray area filled with very hot water? Sounds unpleasant. Stay out of it.

In many companies, the railroads in this instance, that goes against privacy clauses signed either at hiring or during the course of employment, and their could be significant penalties for that.

Exactly. Why flout them?

Some people are putting themselves out on a limb in posting and discussing at this forum,

That's simply false. If the water starts getting a little warm, they can simply shut down the old alias and pick up a new one. Once again, let me make this clear: I think it's fine to post under alias as long as one recognizes the tradeoff.

If not, well, then those people simply aren't going to post anymore, (why should they?) and that sort of defeats the purpose of a public forum and discussion..

As Mr. Norman proudly (and rightly) pointed out, this is THE place for informed discussion. Gossip doesn't have a legitimate place in informed discussion. Gossip, rumors and conjecture are the "bad money" that drives out the good. (Gresham's law, folks.) Now let's drop the persecution talk. We're all capable of working from direct personal observation and public data. So let's.

Back to the topic at hand....

It appears to me that the Empire Builder seems to have a rather dedicated
and enthusiastic ridership and support among the states it travels through,
unlike some of the other long distance trains. I think that, unlike some
other long distance trains, there is very little airplane competition along
the route; for much of the route, the Empire Builder appears to be the
only link with the outside world. That's why it appears at present to be
safe from the kind of elimination that trains like the Sunset Limited always
appear to be facing. Do you suppose that if the other western trains could
be made as reliable as the Empire Builder that they might begin to generate significantly better ridership? Also, maybe the state governments
and people in some of the other regions might begin to view their long
distance trains as a vital link to the rest of the country the way people
along the Empire Builder do.

Uhh,

When did the Sunset ever run Chicago-LA? Are we talking transfer cars on another train El Paso to Chicago?

Sunset is a historic name of the Southern Pacific. It ran LA-New Orleans since WWII (before that an initial section ran Bay Area overnight-LA-New Orleans. The Golden State Route was the SP/CRI&P Chicago-LA run, the Overland Route (SP-UP-C&NW or MILW) was the Chicago-Bay Area run, the Coast Route held LA-SF, and the Cascade Route ran Bay Area-Portland/Seattle.

Please enlighten with Amtrak timetable dates...

TIA John

Irish Chieftain wrote:As for the Sunset, when it was running Chicago-LA, I remember one of the reasons for lateness quite clearly. The train gets stopped by the border with Mexico (the Rio Grande) and the train gets searched for illegals that may have jumped on. I was on such a trip in 1988.

That's why [the Empire Builder] appears at present to be safe from the kind of elimination that trains like the Sunset Limited always appear to be facing.

The key word is "appear." That's nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of so-called railfans keen on seeing the trains that offend them "axed."

Notice that the Empire Builder has twice as many operations for the month as the other daily trains. This is because the Portland-Spokane run is also treated as an operation. If this relatively short run is always on time, then the on-time performance of the main Chicago-Seattle train is not nearly 80%. In fact it could be as low as 61% (62 operations per month and 24 of them late). I am not saying that this is the case but without better information you do not know. It could be a case of using statistics to make a point.

mattfels wrote:

That's why [the Empire Builder] appears at present to be safe from the kind of elimination that trains like the Sunset Limited always appear to be facing.

The key word is "appear." That's nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of so-called railfans keen on seeing the trains that offend them "axed."

i trust you can show us where so called railfans call for the trains that offend them to be "axed " . otherwise that is just speculation on your part as to thier motives for posting .