Electric Keystone service returns

The limiteds are going to only stop at Paoli and Lancaster.

If there would ever be a market for NY-HAR service that bypassed 30th Street, assuming this catered to the NY/NJ market, would it not make more sense to send the train down the cutoff?

In fact, if there is such a market, then the service should be split into 2 different trains, one for the NY crowd, and one for the Philly crowd which could originate from Suburban station which would be more attractive to Center City business people and residents.

Has Amtrak done ridership studies on this line?

The problem with NY-Hbg service effectively bypassing Philidelphia is that the objective of a state supported service such as is the Keystone is to take people TO an attraction in the sponsiring state - not take them OUT.

In short, the Commonwealth is willing to support a train to take shoppers to Wannamakers and Strawbridges in Phila - not to Macys and Gimbels in New York (oh whoops, I guess when referring to department store retailers it is best nowadays to include the phrase "or successors"; but I think the point is made).

Agreed Gil, I just don't know how many New Yorkers venture to Lancaster or Harrisburg for business or other trips, or conversely how many Harrisburians venture to NY for business as well. If the answer is none, why run the trains to New York? If the trip ended in Philly, theoretically they could increase the service.

If there really is a NY-Harrisburg connection, then the new service should be jointly funded by NY,NJ and PA, but wasn't that the point of funding it via the Federal Gov't instead of having states squabble over who pays what? I see this is where it gets sticky.

I just think it would make taking the train more practical if it could bypass Philly if it was warranted. I've taken the Keystone many times from Philly, and when I board at 30th, the train is already loaded with people (more seats would be nice too), so there are people riding through Philly. This is where Amtrak needs to do their homework.

I don't see the point in having trains run via the Zoo subway to bypass 30th. If you are going to bypass, the cutoff would be the way to go. Of course that opens a whole new debate since NS(CR) ripped up the second track and took down the catenary. This is really the most frustrating part of railroading for me today, companies fighting each other instead of building solutions that are mutually beneficial. I bet Conrail never thought to ask Amtrak or SEPTA if they wanted to ever use that second electrified track before they ripped everything up.

Of course that opens a whole new debate since NS(CR) ripped up the second track and took down the catenary.

Not to mention the rather important matter that the cutoff isn't Amtrak trackage nor has it ever been. Not to mention that the cutoff would bypass so many stops as to have no praacticality

Not to mention that the cutoff would bypass so many stops as to have no praacticality

How do you figure?

If you read my last post, you would know that what I was talking about was the benefit for New Yorkers or Harrisburgians to get to either destination without going through Philly and providing a faster trip.

Between Trenton and 30th, there is nothing being missed, except Cornwells, and I doubt there is a huge crowd there going to Harrisburg.

Between 30th and Thorn, you're missing Ardmore and Paoli. Go back and read my original post that if this was done, there would be a separate train from 30th that went directly to Harrisburg, so nothing is being missed and would be practical.

jfrey40535 wrote:If there really is a NY-Harrisburg connection, then the new service should be jointly funded by NY,NJ and PA, but wasn't that the point of funding it via the Federal Gov't instead of having states squabble over who pays what? I see this is where it gets sticky.

I just think it would make taking the train more practical if it could bypass Philly if it was warranted. I've taken the Keystone many times from Philly, and when I board at 30th, the train is already loaded with people (more seats would be nice too), so there are people riding through Philly. This is where Amtrak needs to do their homework.

I don't see the point in having trains run via the Zoo subway to bypass 30th. If you are going to bypass, the cutoff would be the way to go. Of course that opens a whole new debate since NS(CR) ripped up the second track and took down the catenary. This is really the most frustrating part of railroading for me today, companies fighting each other instead of building solutions that are mutually beneficial. I bet Conrail never thought to ask Amtrak or SEPTA if they wanted to ever use that second electrified track before they ripped everything up.

To me, this is where the whole federalism issue comes to the front.

You have the state governments, by their very nature, saying, "Well, crap, why should we have to pay for New York's share of this intercity passenger rail service?" Or, "When's New Jersey going to kick in for this?" Or, "Why doesn't PennDOT pay more?" The feds are needed to play "Ye Olde Royal Gamekeeper", and keep everyone honest.

Of course, when the feds are not honest are where the problems start. But that's another thread.

Passenger service on the cutoff will not happen for a very long time, if not never again. The time savings would not be substantial enough (we're not talking about cutting across an entire state, something Amtrak would probably not do anyway), three or four stations (not indcluding CWH and PHN) would be skipped (four if you include Exton being skipped), and the subway already provides enough time savings.

Keep dreaming.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if there were enough traffic to justify trains skipping Philly via the subway, let alone the cutoff. I think the NY trains should actually run to Suburban Station and then on to Harrisburg--that might draw in additional passengers between NYC and Philly, and would only add maybe ten minutes to the schedule. It would also be less confusing for Philly passengers to know that every Harrisburg train departed from Suburban Station, as opposed to some only leaving from 30th Street and others leaving from both.

I think there's probably a market for Harrisburg/Lancaster to New York trains. While waiting for a Septa local at the tiny Exton station a couple years ago, I was shocked to see a couple dozen people board a NY-bound Keystone. If the service was significantly faster (Keystone line upgrades plus no engine change plus Zoo subway), I'll bet they would do a brisk business. Indeed, my father and I both noted that departing from a Keystone Line stop might be a way to avoid the parking issues and crowds of the major corridor stations.

Basically, I think if your service runs through New York, you can fill trains to just about anywhere. The crowd at Exton I saw, the Cardinal's ridership increase since it was extended to NYP, and of course the packed Acelas and Regionals we've all seen or ridden out of New York testify to this. Amtrak could run a train from New York to the moon and probably do a brisk business.

JPS

Gilbert B Norman wrote:the Commonwealth is willing to support a train to take shoppers to Wannamakers and Strawbridges in Phila - not to Macys and Gimbels in New York.

Since they are now all Macey's, does it still matter?

jfrey40535 wrote:the cutoff. I bet Conrail never thought to ask Amtrak or SEPTA if they wanted to ever use that second electrified track before they ripped everything up.

Neither Amtrak, SEPTA, or the State of Pennsylvania offered to pay money at the time, even though a proposed "Cross County Metro" would run that way!

JimBoylan wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote:the Commonwealth is willing to support a train to take shoppers to Wannamakers and Strawbridges in Phila - not to Macys and Gimbels in New York.

Since they are now all Macy's, does it still matter?

Sure does, Mr. Boylan.

Even if all the stores I noted are now part of the Macy's chain (I subsequently learned that Gimbels is kaput), I don't forsee too much Sales Tax revenue from a NYCity sale finding its way into any Pennsylvania coffer. Further, the employee at the NY store serving that State supported rail passenger from Lancaster is not likely paying any income tax to Pennsylvania,

Even for that one taxpayer in a million who dutifully files a Use Tax Return, most states will allow a credit against Use Tax liability for Sales Tax paid to another jurisdiction on such purchases that the Use Tax is due.

A further note; Wilmington DE merchants have in the past spossored 'tax free excursions' from New York using Amtrak as the carrier. True, Delaware does not impose Sales Tax upon the sale of tangible personal property at retail, but New York certainly does impose UseTax on same. Only problem is that, absent the sale of titled property such as an auto, enforcement is quite difficult. The best I've seen for enforcement is some states (Indiana for one) have a line item on their Income Tax Return (IT-40 for Indiana) for Use Tax due - along with the notation "You must make an entry on this line even if ZERO". Now the taxpayer filing that return, if in fact having a liability, and not reporting such has filed a false (note my avoidance of the term fraudulent) tax return.

I have taken the Keystone corridor twice. I might give the new level of service a try around the thanksgiving holiday. Any train coming from NY shouldn't go to Suburban sta. It will just add more time to the schedule. Plus, I believe that Septa will honor Amtrak tickets between 30th street and Market East. Plenty of people from the NY area use the train to Harrisburg. I believe most travellers using a NY to HAR train only go as far south as Philly. There is a good market west of PHL, especially plenty of business parks in the Paoli area. LNC is another popular destination out there.

Even if all the stores I noted are now part of the Macy's chain (I subsequently learned that Gimbels is kaput)

For the record, there hasn't been a Gimbel's in Manhattan since 1987. The building thereof became the "Manhattan Mall" in the early 1990s.