computerized trains on the lirr

some of the conductors i work with were tellin the engineers that since transit was experimenting with computerized trains that their jobs on the lirr were going to be cut when it comes here. now i read in railpace and article about transit and its not the engineers that r being cut but the conductors!

my boy freind is an electrical engineer on the rr now and he told me that the same compnay who worked on the engines were working with the lirr for computerized doors and announcements and that s why every car has computers in the doors. he said they will be able to zone off cars and open from a console in jamaica when it comes to the lirr.

now im worried because i wanna qualify one day as a conductor and head into managament but now im wondering if theres gonna be a conductor or at least asst conductor. transit is only going to keep the engineer. shoiuld i be an engineer instead? or somethin else? i dunno

Rumors like this need to be killed. You should've read the sticky Mike made about this.

La-Qwanda have you finished your A/C training class yet? do you know if they have plans for anymore classes this year or is this pretty much it for quite a few years?

La-Qwanda's right on this one, at least as far as the subway's concerned. It's the conductors that are being eliminated, at least in the subway experiment. If it's job security you're looking for, it doesn't take too much intelligence to guess which craft will see big reductions in the next ten years.

I doubt this means layoffs, as the State simply digs deeper in the taxpayers' pockets when it needs money, but certainly the day of two and three and four trainmen on trains is coming to an end.

Look for a new member of the crew to replace most brakeman if all pans out as some would like.

C

Before the M7s were put in service on the Island, I remember hearing a lot about GPS/remotely controlled doors. After that, I've never really heard much, but I'd definitely like to know what will happen with the brakeman's position.

i tried to show the link to the article in railpace but i cant seem to get it to work. they r gonna keep the train operators on the ta but not have conductors. that why im worried im wonderin if there is a future on the lirr as a trainman becuase they r goin to try it here too soon. am i gonna have a job in 20yrs?

i think once you get a union job on the LIRR you pretty much have it for life unless you do something REALLY bad or negligent.
even if they did eliminate the conductors (who would collect the fares? would the LIRR go to an honor system like MetroLink does in CA?) that doesn't mean anyone would get fired, it just means they would stop hiring them. the ones that currently work for the RR might get new jobs on the RR or just be slowly fazed out as they retire.

Unlike some crafts, Train Service on the Long Island does not have a recient "stabilization of force" or "scope" agreement. The vast majority of trainmen are employees with less than seven years and since the manning of trainmen on trains is solely up to the Carrier, there would be no negotiation if the Company wanted to reduce crew size, eliminate some brakemen, collectors, conductors, etc.

No other craft could collect tickets -- that is the exclusive duty of Train Service employees -- but operation of doors, assisting passengers, etc, can be carried out by managers, ushers, etc.

Many other railroads have replaced at least one crew member on each train with a low-paid manager while others have eliminated conductors altogether and paid engineers a few bucks extra to handle the former conductors' work.

Engineers on the LIRR do have a very tight scope rule, are already qualified conductors and as most insist on copying their own paperwork, management could reduce forces with little impact to the operation.

With on-board "penalty fares" rising, trainmen are collecting fewer fares Less than 5% collect their salaries in ticket sales and half collect no cash whatsoever.

The M-7 equipment also has many features that favor small crew sizes too, so much talk is being given to cutting assignments.

Clem

so one day the LIRR can just up and fire as many conductors/engineers as it pleases? so then what exactly is the point of the union?

i think the LIRR reduces its forces by attrition, instead of firing they just stop hiring and slowly the workforce dimishes.

and if they are so keen to dump the conductors, why did they go on a massive hiring spree about 4 years ago?

LIRailfan..

I guess in reality the LIRR is a business and yeah, they probably can furlough at their pleasure depending on their needs. It wasn't uncommon at all years ago for Engineers to be furloughed which is a fancy term for lay-off. The last furlough was in the late 80's...they had a class of Engineer trainees who were just about to qualify and were furloughed along with Engineers.

Their "hiring spree" makes sense because their operation is not presently capable yet, to operate without Trainmen or Engineers. I think La-Qwanda is reffering to an article in Railpace and the media about computerized operation on the TA. There was some talk on the LIRR from Conductors jibing their Engineers about computerized trains on the TA and other places and how Engineers jobs weren't as solid as we believed. Shop talk nonsense between guys goofing on each other.

To be honest, I thought the TA was going to be "Operatorless" because of what some Conductors were saying. Now it seems that the TA is looking to be "Conductorless" within the next few years, not "Operatorless".

I disagree that they are "keen" to dump Conductors. But I do believe that over the next couple of decades, technology will diminish the roles of Conductors and Engineers alike. It is beginning to already. Anyone who has been there before they went on a modernization program and now would see it. Newer employees who know no other LIRR than the present one don't. Qwanda is going to be there probably for the next 30yrs. She will definately see big changes and it is probable that she might one day see an LIRR without a train person in the traditional sense. And look...is the guy who sits at the front of a train just to see if it hits a person walking on the tracks, while the computer runs the train with no human train handling at all, really an Engineer?

i keep hearing about this automation plan but i personally think it will never happen. you will always need someone to collect the tickets (conductors) and no one in their right mind would go into a metal tube going 85 mph hour with no one at the front and your life in the hands of a computer virus. they may talk about it a lot, but they also talked about everyone having a flying car by now. also it will cost trillions upon trillions of dollars to do anything remotely like that on the LIRR and thats just money they don't have (or ever will have).

Railfan,

Yes, the LIRR can furlough, or "lay off" as many conductors as it likes, as long as they were hired after a certain date which is specified in their contract. Same goes for most crafts, although the date of stabilization differs in some union agreements. Such a layoff would have to be in reverse seniority order, but the Railroad retains the right to reassign, retain or eliminate manpower as it desires, as long as it doesn't give the work to another craft or to a non-union employee.

As in most fields, the best job security is to seek a trade that will continue to be needed and then take on as much skilled work as possible.

The advantage of a union is that the company can't "single out" an employee and must treat them all the same, at least in theory. They are bound by the Agreement and have to follow a set of rules. Anyone hired before the stabilization date is guaranteed a job, basically for life, unless their actions cause them to lose it or unless the Company makes a deal to "buy them out".

Clem

Were engineers able to work in their former positons if they were furlouged? Such as a coach cleaner. Someone told me the LIRR didn't even layoff during the depression?

There is currently legislation proposed to have one man(engr) road freights on the Class I's. I don't ever see remote control ever being implemented around here with the speeds of the passenger trains and so forth. With the MTA strapped for cash if there actually talk of eliminating non-safety sensitive jobs?

Hi Freightguy..

As Clem said, if the employee was hired before the job stabilization date, which averages around 1995 at present, the LIRR cannot disconnect you from their Company..

I am pretty sure of this, Clem would know better, it does not mean that you are guaranteed employment in your craft which is being downsized or eliminated..it means they will find employment in the Company for you.

During the Depression, they didn't lay-off, they furloughed..nice touch isn't it? There were arrangements where they shortened work weeks in order to not furlough or lay-off more employees than they had to.

Speaking of legislation, there is legislation being proposed to define a commuter train crew outside of NYC, as one that consists of at least one crew member qualified on the operating rules for their class of service (Condr or Trainperson) in addition to the Engineer..it has been proposed since 2003 and hasn't moved..the railroads have resisted it.

They haven't proposed having "Engineerless" trains even on the TA..on the TA there WILL be a Train Operator up front. Except it seems, that his job will gradually change from actually operating the train, to just sitting there tapping an alerter every 30sec or so, while a computer runs the train, opens doors and announces the stations. So, are the people stepping into a "metal tube going 85mph with nobody up front"?

The LIRR Engineers have a "Manning Agreement" which means that any train operated by the LIRR shall have a member of the BLE Div. 269 on board. So even if the LIRR attempted to implement RTO in yards or on the road, there will be an Engineer on that train..he might not be doing much, but at least he has a job.

As it was pointed out already, anything like what the TA is doing is probably at least 10years away on the LIRR..and the fare collection issue has to be resolved.

To La-Qwanda:

I truly sympathize with you on your concerns for your future...so, please, please, please don't move over to Engine Service..

Liquidcamphor wrote: his job [the engineer] will gradually change from actually operating the train, to just sitting there tapping an alerter every 30sec or so,

hey, doesn't that sound a lot like George Jettsons job? all he did was press a red button over and over all day.

this truly is the future!