computerized trains on the lirr

Peanuts...can you clarify what you are saying?

Freightguy...normally yes, when the Engr changes ends for to become another train, adds or sets out equipment and such, yes they need a rear-end braketest. I'm not sure though with simply changing ends on the same train with no cutting or adding equipment..simply just to make a reverse move are they required to brake test..but I'll find out.

The LIRR is presently trying to obtain permission from the FRA to use the "Brake Applied Light" (possibly modifed to indicate required information) as a proper rear-end brake test..something all new LIRR equipment has. When this happens, and it is going to happen, an employee on the rear will nolonger be necessary.

Liquidcamphor

Yes, you're right, I did take a deep breath now. I realize that I may have flown off the handle, but I get very aggravated when people with no RR experience single us out as the causes for the MTA woes. We already know that all of that is false, and that the problems associated with the LIRR and MTA are more to do with shoddy management and politics. There will always be what we know as (what is the saying "Sunday morning quarterbacks" or is it Monday?) who think that they have come up with answers to problems by simply looking at what is done a few times in front of them and not take time to look into what else is put in in order to complete a job.

I do agree that if the LIRR wanted to seriously do something like this, they would try, but I still feel that there will be too many obstacles to encounter just to complete this process. besides, most of everything that the MTA and LIRR does is usually politicaly connected, and as politics go, things can change over night. Pataki's days are numbered in office, and even though I feel that he won't be running for re-election again, even if he does, I think that many New Yorkers have had enough of him. Once he goes, it's a whole new ball game, with new players, and new politics. By that point I'm sure that even Kalikow's days would be numbered as well. I also feel that there will be a breaking point where the public will eventually flip out and raise enough hell to turn heads that will eventually cause a massive shake up in the MTA brass. It's only a matter of time. At this point in time, the hiring of more people into management is to #1- replace the folks who will be retiring soon, and #2 to bloat the top of the totem pole, pay hordes of dollars to excess staffing in the higher ups. As the saying goes on the RR, the RR has for quite sometime now been top heavy, a case of "too many chiefs, too few indians." If it begins to happen, I'll just sit back and watch! It will only be a matter of time before those "Highly trained managers" screw up and cause a major accident, hopefully NOT at the expense of someone's life!

The present MTA board is hell-bent on saving labor costs and eliminating the problems presently caused by train crews. The hiring of some 200 managers is not to bloat the management ranks or replace the six managers who are retiring. Look for a big change in the summer or fall. There is no way the present situation of unsupervised crews is being allowed to continue. There are way too many problems with collectors bailing off, "No Cash" cash reports and trains stuck for hours while the crews refuse to troubleshoot. The company will own the managers and thats what they want. Right now there are maybe 300 trainmen every day who fail to complete their assignaments and another 500 who fail to collect a nickle in fares. The MTA is under huge pressure to supervise them closely with managers. The union, unfortunately has given its blessing. Those who continue on the job will work harder and be under close scrutiny of a supervisor from report time until they return to their terminal.

Personally, I think Pataki is insane. Someday, the bill for all of his recklessness re:state finances is gonna come due-and it will be a whopper.

Based upon the comments in this string ( many of which seem to have been generated by employees), the company seems to have 'lost control' of a certain segment of its employees.

Pardon the naive question-but how did this happen ?

How were these people supervised in the 'old days'?

I can't help but wonder-but perhaps MANAGEMENTS' hiring practices have something to do with this.

It surely isn't PC to say this-but the LIRR seems to have become a giant 'make work' project or 'social welfare' experiment. These people that bail off the job or don't collect fares apparently never learned the concept of 'a days work for a days pay.' Yikes !!!!

How did it happen?

Government regulation and taxation pushes LIRR (PRR) into financial ruin.

Government ownership with no accountability or desire for profit.

Racist/affirmative action hiring practices forces hiring and promotion of arrogent, useless and/or stupid people with no or bad qualifications.

Contempt and disdain for experienced or skilled employees by stupid people due to relative inadequacies made obvious in their presense.

Hiring of more stupid people to support decisions of stupid inexperienced managers.

Lowering of management wages to insure experienced people who may shadow stupid bosses do not seek positions.

Breakdown of support departments such as Training and Rules caused by hiring and promotion of unqualified, low paid workers.

Wanton buying of silly stuff by stupid people.

Wanton design and construction of capital improvements by stupid people.

Unqualified management by political appointees.

Social welfare attitude of government ownership.

Quest for higher budgets to justify higher salaries, bigger staffs to justify higher salaries.

Socialist belief that more spending will bring better results.

Modern American socialist "consumer" mentality that all things are consumable and must be made bigger, better, more complex, more attractive and more disposable.

And lastly, a the quest for "political correctness" that discourages any criticism of stupid policies or stupid people.

Clem

In a previous post someone stated that hundreds of train bail off everyday and turn in hundreds of zero cash reports. People on this forum have been saying that as long as this forum has been around. If the MTA/LIRR has teams of spotters on the trains recording this why isn't anyone called on the carpet on this? I never hear anyone getting in trouble. If this is so rampant why isn't anything done? The railroad hired so much that trainman have to shadow other trainmen around. And there is another of A/C's coming out in the spring. That just compounds all this silliness. Why doesn't the railroad with all this managers get some of this bad trainman in trouble. I bet the bailing and zero cash reports will end.

The Railroad does take some action against much of this, but remember that there are only a handful of managers who even know how to report these infractions and how to do the hours of paperwork needed to prepare a trial.

The Company is looking at the long term fix which is to document the statistics and use them to sell a strategy to the MTA that solves the problem. In the meantime, they are persuing criminal charges against a number of employees who have bailed off their trains which as convictions will mean dismissal. They are also dismissing record numbers of new employees just before they finish probation without even telling them the cause.

Good managers give rogue employees lots of rope -- they document infractions until the evidence is beyond reproach, then seek dismissal. A well prepared case by a good manager is always successful.

Clem

Mark: You said that you fear the day one of the new managers screws up and causes an accident.

Who actually has the authority re: movement of the train? Under LIRR/MTA procedures does a Tranportation Manager have authority to order the crew to do something they consider unsafe, or that is against the rules, as per the Employee Rulebook?

If the answer is yes, I might agree with your concerns. Also: would such a manager be able to overrule the Chief Train Dispatcher at 204?

Hope I'm not butting in here, but your question is a complex one that has been addressed considerably over the years throughout the nation. Basically, you ask, "What constitutes insubordination?"

One famous law board award states that "An employee given a "direct order" by a manager must comply with that order, unless complying with that order will result in an accident or injury". It can be assumed that violation of a train movement operating rule falls into that category, so nobody can be forced to violate such a rule unless ordered by a Superintendent who can sign train orders or his boss. On the LIRR, this would be the Supt - Train Movement, General Supt, CTO, VP - Operations, or President, all of whom are rules and characteristics qualified..

That's no simple answer, but it is assumed that someone with the authority to issue (sign) a train order can verbally execute an exception to the rules. The person being ordered can and should question any such order if he feels he needs information to insure his safety.

For example, the LIRR President, who is rules qualified orders you verbally to disobey a block signal displaying "stop". You can inquire, "Sir, have all opposing trains been represented, sir" . If he tells you yes, then you must comply.

No manager can force you to do something that will cause injury. However, the burden of proof is on you to prove that an injury would have been caused, not that it might have been caused. You don't want to become an unemployed hero.

Thus the saying "Comply and greive." You follow the order and complain later.

The fear that Mark expresses is that some new or not-too-bright employee can be lead down a path of distruction by a new or not-too-bright manager. There are many checks and balances in the system, but I do share Mark's concerns and encourage train crews to know their rules or call for advice when conflicts arise.

In conflicts between the Chief Dispatcher and a field supervisor there is always some give and take, depending on the individuals and their respect for each other's knowledge. Usually the Chief will prevail and should, unless the field man has some specific information that requires his course to be followed. In terms of pure rank, the Chief Dispatcher has most field men beat.

Hope I didn't step on toes answering this one... It's an old, interesting and very popular topic on all railroads.

C

Clem, that is quite a list you've assembled as an answer to my question.

No surprises there-sad to say. In fact, if one starts with political correctness and works backwards-the genesis of most of the problems that you outlined is readily apparent.

VD Yard

I still want to know where it is that you get your information from? You still haven't even answered my question as to what connection it is that you have with the RR. I mean seriously, where do you get the ridiculous number of 300 trainmen bailing out everyday? Do you even know how many people that would be and how many jobs that would affect? Please stop the insanity, you are seriously making yourself look quite foolish. Anyone with an ounce of brain cells will know that a number like 300 is absolutely absurd! Heres another thing I'm tossing at you that you may not know. Do you know that other trainmen can turn in collectors who don't report for duty? I turned in one last week. You think that there is this brotherhood where we protect co-workers who just simply want to bail out at every opportunity they get and let the rest of us screw ourselves to collect fares? My rear end! I'm not going to kill myself while someone bails out to go home and enjoy their day when they should be with us working. It doesn't work the way you think it does. And many folks here speak of the bail outs like some kind of epedemic. It's not! It's a few folks who do it, and they are often repeaters who will eventually get caught, and I have no reserves about turning someone in. I frankly don't give a crap for why it is that they left early. Again VD Yard, I have no idea where you get your information from, and i wonder if you might be even talking about the right RR. But as far as what I see on my jobs everyday, 99% of collectors show up and do their jobs right, while the 1 idiot continues to play with his luck.

On a side note, if anyone worked today or rode the trains during this afternoon commute had a front row seat to witness LIRR management at it's best. 4 trains konk out in less than an hour, and all we have at Penn is a train wreck where crews are completely out of assignments, crews not knowing where to go, lack of communication, and a snow balling delay. BUT VD Yard here claims that the crews are responsible for this, not "wanting to troubleshoot". Yes VD, we love to strand trains, because as you know, we don't have homes to go home to. we don't have families to see, or things to do. We just like to sit there at work all day, HEY, who gives a F***! I'm getting paid right?! WRONG! The longer my train is delayed, the later I will get home, and the less time I have to spend with my family, and the sooner I will be back at work. There won't be any big change for the summer, I promise you that. there is no crisis on the RR where the company is scrambling to track it's employees to make sure that they are where they are suppose to be. There has beeen a growing number of Conductors and AC's who are quickly becoming aggitated with folks who are not doing their jobs. And soon enough, they will all be gone, and more than likely, it will be because of the co-workers who have had enough! Please, provide a source for your information! The union didn't give their blessings to anyone like you think. And even if supervision does crack down on people who bail out, well than that would be welcomed, because it will help us all when everyone is alway there to help. But as far as I'm am concerned, none of this will happen. They should be more concerned about running their trains on-time, fix their trains for starters, and hire some managers who are capable of running a RR and not a businees or a store. Even all those angry commuters that i spoke with today all know that management is behind the problems, and they don't work on the RR.

point88

Contrary to what you hear, people do get caught, and are disciplined. You may not hear about it because unlike the 300 trainmen that VD Yard has watched bail out of trains, the very few who do it, and continue to do it will eventually get caught. Sometimes management just plays along with it to see how long the individual continues to bail, and will then swoop down on him when he least expects it, and it's trouble for him. The Union won't do too much for him I'll tell you that. But the bailing out is not as common as many like to claim it is with some exaggeration. Don't believe everything that you hear.

Head-end View

Clemuel pretty much answered your question. We simply cannot refuse orders unless we truly feel that their is a dire danger ahead. Believe me, crews will question it all the way to the end because it will be their rear-ends that will be grilled if something happens, not the manager, because the manager will simply say "I never told him that he could do that". Oh yes, they will do this, that's how many of them are. So you see, this is why we all have to have eyes behind our heads at all times. Just pray that people like VD Yard don't get hired by the RR for management, because then we will all be up the creek. And Yep, now that I read back what i wrote, i realize that I have to take a my breath again as I have flipped off the handle again. But I hope that most of you can see the difference in what i say compared to what people like VD Yard say. Believe me when I say that I am not at work working with a blind fold on my eyes. I see what goes on everyday, I hear it through the radio, and the finger only points to one direction! My apologies to the folks who are paying more for less, but alas, Conductors, Engineers, and AC's don't make the rules, we follow them, and obey them.

One more thing, Clemuel, you truly nailed it on the head with everything that you said. I'm glad to see that some folks are not blind to the realities that are around us. Everything well said!

Wow, Mark good post. I chose to stay out of this beyond my earlier post because A) alot of what is aid is just B.S i.e 300 collectors bailing a day (if that is true they must be afraid of me becuse I always get my collectors)B) we have this exact same discussion almost word for word once a year. In fact last years' predicted huge changes for last summer that didn't happen C) you pretty much said everything I would have said.
I too am curious were MrVD gets his info from. Maybe he is unaware of the fact that most collectors jobs do not stay with train for the entire trip. So maybe he see some one getting off a KO train Hicksville and thinks he is bailing instead of meeting the next westbound as per his or her assignment. So for the benefit of MrVD I just randomly opened up the crew book to a collector assignment. This particular job works a train out of NY but gets off at Syosset, makes the next W/B back to NY , does a roundtrip to Great Neck and then works a Babylon train but only to Rockville Ctr. so if Mr VD maybe not knowing as much as he thinks happens to be on one of those trains and sees the collector getting off before the final destination he would think the collector is bailing. And if they put bosses on my trains ...so what, I am were I am supposed to be when I'm supposed to be there, and I do my job the way I am supposed (and no VD I am not in the minority) so i don't really care who rides my train . Anyway I have already said too much so ...cheers!

i may be naive, but when you say "collector" are you refering to the brakeman / assistant conductor?


and why would they get off a babylon train at Rockville Centre? what about a passenger who gets on at RC going to Lindenhurst, won't they be overlooked then?

LIRailfan79 wrote:i may be naive, but when you say "collector" are you refering to the brakeman / assistant conductor?

No besides an asstiant coductor who is assigned to the enginer and conductor and stays with them the entire tour a/k/a the brakeman, other asst conductors are assigned to trains as ticket collectors, they go from train to train collecting tickets. Since they usually do not stay with the train for it's entire trip they can work as any as 10 trains in one day.

LIRailfan79 wrote:and why would they get off a babylon train at Rockville Centre? what about a passenger who gets on at RC going to Lindenhurst, won't they be overlooked then?

Because once the 2nd ticket lift after Jamaica is completed most of the ticket collecting work is done. So now he can go work another train or trains. The train still has the conductor, asst condr, and maybe a collector or 2 left , so they will get the tickets from people who board along the way. I just want to make sure you are clear, the Collectors don't decide were to get off and on trains, its all in the crew assingment book.