Chatham operations

I was wondering if anyone knew what Harlem division trains did at Chatham. The switch to the Harlem appears to be opposite the station, with the east & west B&A tracks in between. What did an arriving northbound Harlem train do? Did it continue over to the B&A and make a reverse move into the station? Was there a platform opposite the station on the Harlem line? Likewise on a southbound run, did the train back from the yard onto the B&A to load? I think you get the idea... any info would be appreciated. John

When working in that area, I was told that originally there were separate stations for the Harlem and the B&A which were opposite each other. After both became part of the NYC, there was a platform on the Harlem side.

Some Harlem trains terminated at Chatham and others ran to North Adams using trackage rights over the B&A between Chatham and North Adams Jct. Old track diagrams show that Harlem power and consists could be turned on the wye without going onto the B&A main tracks.

Hope this helps.

Anyone have photos of Chatham yard and/or Rutland operations at Chatham?

While I never worked this territory, I rode it many times. The first time
was probably around 1957 when I drove from Waterbury over to Brewster
and rode to Chatham and back. At the time, there were two trains each
way except for weekends when there were more. I had some time in
Chatham and visited with the operator at B. & A. 65 which was just across
the tracks from the passenger station next to the crossing. At that time,
the train backed off into the yard and the RS-3 ran around the train. I do
not recall whether they turned the engine on the wye there or just did a
runaround move. There was also an S-2 engine working as a yard
switcher in that yard and they were keeping quite busy with their moves.
The operator told me that the Rutland would come in (via B. & A. trackage
rights by then) later in the PM with cars for the night train east (south) on
the Harlem, then go back to Rutland.
The whole place was a very interesting operation to me and the people
were very friendly too.
Seems to me that CSX may still have a wye at Chatham where they are
able to turn approximately one engine and one car at a time.
At the time of my trip in 1957, the evening train to Chatham and the
morning train to New York still had a "meal" car, I am not positive but I
think it was listed in the local timetable as a diner-lounge.
When the trains used to run beyond Chatham to Pittsfield and North Adams, this was the only time when two points (New York and Pittsfield)
had competeting passenger service on the New York Central and the New
Haven Railroads.
Before somebody trips me up on this one, I know that Boston had service
to and from New York on the B. & A. via Springfield but this was probably
more convenience for passengers to/from Worcester than anything else
and when the NHRR put on the Budd Car between Worcester and New
London, the through cars came off on the Boston - New York trains via
Springfield and the connections at Springfield did not improve over the
years that followed.
Noel Weaver

Thanks guys, great info. I have some old maps of the station/junction/ yard area and like to match operations with the track layout. Makes the maps a little more enjoyable when I can envision what was done. John

I recall reading a few years ago, that a crewman would lead passengers in the dark with an old lantern from the Rutland station to the Harlem Division station.

Considering the size of the junction, I always wondered why the three lines didn't get together and share a common depot.

Was the Harlem double-tracked all the way to Chatham at one point? If so, anybody know when it was single-tracked?

Dieter/

The Harlem Division was single track from Putnam Jct. North to Ghent. From Ghent to Chatham was technically the B&A.

-otto-

What did an arriving northbound Harlem train do? Did it continue over to the B&A and make a reverse move into the station?

I can answer this for the 60s, and I do not think this practice began in the 60s. The answer to the second of your two questions, quoted above, is "no." Harlem passenger trains did not go onto the B&A mains.

The answer to your first question is essentially contained in your third question which is:

Was there a platform opposite the station on the Harlem line?

Yes, Harlem trains pulled up to the east end of the wye track where there was a short --- one or two cars long --- wood platform on the east side of the track. So, passengers debarked on the right side of the train, and walked around the front of the locomotive and across the B&A tracks to the B&A station.

I remember power running around the trains, I did not see a whole train turned on the wye any time I was there personally. although I will not assert it was always done this way. When I rode up there it was on one of the weekend trains that had two diesel units (RS-3s) and they pretty much always coupled the units short-hood-to-short hood, so when they ran around the train the engines were oriented correctly, i.e., NYC RS3's cabs were oriented to run long hood leading.

The weekday train*** had only a single RS-3, and I sort of think they would wye the power to keep it running in the preferred direction.


___________________
*** And the conductors who owned that weekday Chatham train were some of the most fascinating and delightful railroaders I have known. Since I'm talking 40 years ago, and these guys were wa-a-a-y up the seniority roster then, I'm sure they're long gone now: John "Foxy" Fox, John Mallon, and Albert "Salty" Wilcox. God bless 'em all!!!

I took a photo of what I believe to be one of the North Adams- Chatham line trains at Pittsfield in August, 1955. You can find it in my Rail Archive at the following URI:

http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc8222.htm

Perhaps comeone would be kind enough to read my commentary on that photo and call my attention to any necessary corrections!

rlsteam wrote:I took a photo of what I believe to be one of the North Adams- Chatham line trains at Pittsfield in August, 1955. You can find it in my Rail Archive at the following URI:

http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc8222.htm

Perhaps comeone would be kind enough to read my commentary on that photo and call my attention to any necessary corrections!

Last year for passenger trains to and from North Adams appears to be
either late 1952 or early 1953. The September 28, 1952 local timetable
for the Harlem Division, Chatham trains shows connecting service to
Pittsfield and North Adams and the next timetable that I have is March 26,
1953 shows no service beyond Chatham. I believe the last couple of
years required a transfer at Chatham and maybe the trains to North
Adams by then were Budd Cars.
Noel Weaver

Until the 1930's, the B&A and Harlem had parallel lines from Chatham to Ghent. They were combined, with the B&A line remaining.

The old B&A line to Ghent and on to Chatham was the old Hudson & Boston (about 1840), then the Western and then the Boston & Albany.
The local freight went from Chatham on west to Hudson via Ghent.
The line was intact all the way through until just a few years ago and then
was cut back to Claverack/Hudson after that.

Passenger service was discontinued on 12/21/32; as of the June 26,
1932 timetable there were still two daily excluding Sunday trains.

Freight service was abandoned from Claverack to Ghent in late 1959/early 1960, leaving a 4 mile spur from Hudson to (about) Claverack.

In 1986, this was reduced to about 2 miles, i.e.,
about from Hudson to Upper Hudson.

Checking NYC timetables for 1955 I see that you are correct, there was no regular service to North Adams at that time. If my photo of August 1955 ( at
http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc8222.htm ) isn't a North Adams train, what could it be? It isn't one of the "name" trains that were hauled by E units, and it isn't the Beeliner (I once rode that from Boston to Pittsfield and back). I don't know the exact date or day of the week the picture was taken, but from the lighting on the front hood it appears to be late in the day, heading west (unlikely that I would have been at the depot early in the day, as I was 16 at the time, visiting Pittsfield on a family vacation trip and staying with friends). Perhaps this was a summer special of some sort -- this could have been close to Labor Day and I believe the NYC did run some special trains up the Chatham line catering to the resort crowd; am I correct? Could it be a special returning to New York? Any help in identifying the train would be appreciated.

A pretty complete set of NYC timetables is available ai this site:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/ptt/timetables.htm

If my photo of August 1955 ( at
http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc8222.htm ) isn't a North Adams train, what could it be?

Well, there are two possibilities I can think of (and neither may be right):
1. Did through Harlem service continue as far as Pittsfield after it ended to North Adams?

2. Does your 1955 TT show other trains on the B&A besides the New England States but more than a Beeliner? For example, maybe it's a mail train (You probably need an employee TT to see those)

. . . Oh, one other thing: it almost certainly isn't a fantrip or other special since it isn't flying white flags (I assume the NYC rulebook required those on specials)

Per the April 24, 1955 System Timetable (from the site mentioned above) the following trains are listed as arriving at (or leaving from) Pittsfield:

Eastbound
#42 [unnamed] 1:53 am
#46 "Interstate Express" 4:53 am
#28 "New England States" 5:42 am
#6 [unnamed] 7:03 am [except Sunday]
#78 "Paul Revere" 9:05 am
#22 "Lake Shore Limited" 11:23 am
#690 Beeliner 4:34 pm [except Sunday]
#92 [unnamed] 5:22 pm [Sunday only]
#624 Beeliner 5:50 pm [except Sat/Sun]

Westbound
#43 [unnamed] 2:52 am
#621 Beeliner 5:58 am [except Sat/Sun]
#7 [unnamed] 6:40 am [Saturday only]
#631 Beeliner 9:02 am [except Sunday]
#49 "Knickerbocker" 2:57 pm
#27 "New England States" 5:14 pm
#23 "New England Wolverine" 6:00 pm
#11 "Southwestern Limited" 7:33 pm
#35 [unnamed] 10:47 pm

My original photo clearly shows an express car behind the second locomotive. Looking at the shadows again (front of the cab, bolts on rail joint)) it appears the photo could show a westbound in early afternoon or an eastbound in late morning (the tracks in Pittsfield run approximately southwest to northeast). Eastbound, the only candidate is the "Lake Shore Limited." Westbound, the only candidate in the "Knickerbocker." It would seem odd for a "name" train to be powered by only two RS units, so I doubt the train is either of these.

As to this being a mail train shown only in the employees' timetable, didn't they usually have a coach for the occasional passenger rider and train crew? The public timetable shows some unnamed overnight trains that I'm guessing were the mail trains. Besides, mail was moved quickly on most railroads and I doubt two RS units could have maintained speed through the Berkshires with a mail train.