Catenary on your layouts

Does the TKM article not describe how to make them? I know Rubbo makes extensive use of jigs for doing his catenary assembly.

choess wrote:Does the TKM article not describe how to make them? I know Rubbo makes extensive use of jigs for doing his catenary assembly.

he has a "construction" table. While he does have a series of small jigs for locating cross arm locations and such, the assembly table route is still extremely labor intensive. In fact, a friend of mine who knows Rubbo claims that he came up with a whole new jig to physically build it all faster.

I've long recognized the need for that. I've actually got a few jigs built. these are new, except for the wire jig. You can bet i'll also make small jigs like rubbo does so that i can line up smaller bits. I'm going to be using the brass shapes to replace my code 100 rail catenary structures.

I'm using brads and such to line my pieced up a 90 degrees, and shims so that i can simply place parts into the jig where they are held together, and i can quickly solder them together. The less room for movement, the better i can make the joints. I just need to find a better way to cut some materials (like my sag braces) to the proper size.



testing plastic sheets to find a good shim thickness for the smaller cross pieces.



this is the wire jig. It holds small diameter wire paralell so that i can make the trolley and auxiliary wire. I might modify it so that i can do the messenger wire as well, but i'm not sure how i plan to do all of that. It seems counter intuitive to me to have the messenger wire pre-built, especially if there are unusual spots on the layout.

I spoke with Kachel and Grant about jigs and we are all doing the same things - Its a two step proccess for catenary wire -
Standardized Catenary
Step 1 On JIG - you make a 3 foot section of wire trolley and auxillary all at once 16" apart
then solder individual hangers (verticals) to the auxillary wire space about scale 16' apart- staggered from trolley auxillary copnnections ( all the verticals are the same lengths because you will trim them later)
Step 2 Hang wire- solder to catenary brackets - trim verticals to make catenary curve on str8 -incline verticals on curves ( in mid air) . Solder Messenger wire to verticals (in mid air)

Protoypical

Heres the Kicker though I noticed on Grants and even on the prototype on Curves - " vertical hangars" on multiple tracks are parallel (they line up) to each other meaning that if you want to accomplish this It would all be custom work done in mid air because each track catenary would have diffrent catenary hanger spacing between Cat Poles. I guess this could be figured out - adjusted diference in measurement for each parallel track on curves but because of the Different Locomotive pantograph wander factor it would be all guess work!

ac0catenary wrote:I spoke with Kachel and Grant about jigs and we are all doing the same things - Its a two step proccess for catenary wire -
Standardized Catenary
Step 1 On JIG - you make a 3 foot section of wire trolley and auxillary all at once 16" apart
then solder individual hangers (verticals) to the auxillary wire space about scale 16' apart- staggered from trolley auxillary copnnections ( all the verticals are the same lengths because you will trim them later)
Step 2 Hang wire- solder to catenary brackets - trim verticals to make catenary curve on str8 -incline verticals on curves ( in mid air) . Solder Messenger wire to verticals (in mid air)

So basically you're saying add the connections between the auxiliary and the messenger before i hang the wire up, and then cut them to size and solder AS i attach the messenger wire?

Protoypical

Heres the Kicker though I noticed on Grants and even on the prototype on Curves - " vertical hangars" on multiple tracks are parallel (they line up) to each other meaning that if you want to accomplish this It would all be custom work done in mid air because each track catenary would have diffrent catenary hanger spacing between Cat Poles. I guess this could be figured out - adjusted diference in measurement for each parallel track on curves but because of the Different Locomotive pantograph wander factor it would be all guess work!

It can be done, but i think i'll just do the math. actually, What you could do is get a piece of string or yarn and mark it down approximately where the verticals would be, then attach them on the wire in the same spots. might work.

green_elite_cab wrote:
So basically you're saying add the connections between the auxiliary and the messenger before i hang the wire up, and then cut them to size and solder AS i attach the messenger wire?

Exactly , all in 3 foot lengths or what ever is managable

Here is some really Ancient Catenary! there are at least a few New Haven, New York Central, and Great northern electrics zipping by. there is even operating third rail on the side.

http://www.archive.org/details/model_railroad

green_elite_cab wrote:Here is some really Ancient Catenary! there are at least a few New Haven, New York Central, and Great northern electrics zipping by. there is even operating third rail on the side.

http://www.archive.org/details/model_railroad

Just an FYI.... If you notice that steam engine is also running on 3rd rail. In fact ALL of thouse trains are running on the 3rd rail if its not the catenary. That is an old 2 rail O Scale layout. The O layout at my club, the NYSME, used to be like that. We no longer use the catenary or 3rd rail for pickup as its all run on direct current thru the two rails now. But incase you were wondering, thats how it worked! If anyone wants to see an engine from this time we still have an FM Trainmaster configured for the 3rd rail using AC motors and has the 3rd rail springs on it. The unit no longer runs with the current systems but is still a sight to see!

Ill have to take some photos of it next time I am up there.

BAM!

Well, i've begun work on my more realistic, super-detailed catenary. THIS is what i wanted to do for that contest, but could not.

I basically only have one pole mostly done, as it is TEDIOUS adding some of the details, mainly the grab iron ladders. The transmission arms are on, as are the insulators. All this pole will need is possibly a signal line, and it will need various braces, but these parts can wait until the overall Catenary structure is built to be installed. On Friday, i hope to begin a few more poles, so that i can roughly complete about three or four catenary bridges.


I basically started with a three foot piece of 5/32 brass H-column stock, and a pair of scale 13 foot long brass "A1" angles (smallest angles you can get from special shapes, i think). I went ahead and marked their location on the pole, which is a little lower in the case of the catenary along Perth Amboy, NJ, which is where i draw my inspiration from. As such, i am only adding one set of arms per pole, rather than two like on the Northeast Corridor. After carefully lining them up, i soldered the two angles back -to- back on the pole, and then pulled the tips together and soldered them as well.



I then used a dremel drill press and a small high-speed cutter to make little dimples in the side of the pole for the support wires that hold each arm up. I soldered a length of wire into the dimple, and used flush cutters to cut the wire just as it reaches the tip of the transmission arms. I then soldered this loose end of the wires to the tips. I then put the pole into a grabber-stand (not sure what they are really called, roll with it! :roll: ), and put a VERY small right angle bend at the end of the wire. I then soldered this more or less in between the angle pieces. These wires are the transmission line hangers, and they will hold the insulators later. I cut each of these hangers a little longer than needed, so that when i installed the insulators later, i could be sure to have enough to make a hook on the bottom for the transmission lines themselves. I then cut off the excess.




Next, i began the most tedious part of pole construction i have encountered so far. Each pole, as i mention above, has a grab iron ladder. These ladders start just above the horizontal cross-brace (which is about 30 feet above the rails), and continue up to just below the highest transmission arm, if such a thing is present. These grab irons need to be cut and shaped to fit. I have no special jig to do this, so i literally sat here all day bending, cutting, and installing them. The one i built is also taller than normal to reach over the Highway bridges on my layout, so it took ALL DAY to cut, form, and CA the grabs in. It isn't hard, but it does take time.

When i finished this, I installed 11-disk insulators onto the transmission hangars. these are cut from the Tichy PRR Catenary Insulator parts. You will need to cut one petticoat (disk) from one of the castings (they are made of 4 petticoats each). Save this single petticoat, since it can be used for the signal power lines and other details later. Once i slid these on (they are pre-cored), i just bent a little right angle in the bottom, partly to keep the insulators from sliding off, and also so eventually a transmission line could be hung.



Finally, i made final measurements for the pole length. I started from the top, and made sure my pole was high enough for the transmission lines to reach the height requirement, while also reaching an inch under my bench work where they will be anchored in.



This project is going to take me a while. I'll update the thread when things get finished, or if I'm constructing something new, but there will likely be a long time of a lot of the same work being done before wires can be hung.

glad to see ur making progress(they look good)they would look better with 3 e44s under them,LOL

cnj1524 wrote:glad to see ur making progress(they look good)they would look better with 3 e44s under them,LOL

Yeah, I know! I need to get those things up and running. They all worked fine on DC, and the one (4457) worked alright the first to runs out on DCC, but now it constantly looses power and hesitates. Meanwhile, nothing looks wrong with it, the wheels are still nice and shiny. I might add more weight, and maybe try and find a way to get all wheel pick up in there.

I'm going to play with 4456, which i have not re-assembled it after painting yet (need a decoder,so i'm keeping it and its parts in the box) and see if i can isolate the wheels and such so that i can get all wheel pick up. My paint job seems to have been done well, it looks super smooth and all those very VERY thin details are all still visible, so i'm thinking its almost ready to get out at the club as well, once the decoder is in. .

still have to paint that third one, but I'm going to hold off on it. I'm either going to paint it as 4465 or 4444, since both seemed to have their old PRR numbers and those radio equipped decals on them during Conrail.

green_elite_cab wrote:

cnj1524 wrote:glad to see ur making progress(they look good)they would look better with 3 e44s under them,LOL

Yeah, I know! I need to get those things up and running. They all worked fine on DC, and the one (4457) worked alright the first to runs out on DCC, but now it constantly looses power and hesitates. Meanwhile, nothing looks wrong with it, the wheels are still nice and shiny. I might add more weight, and maybe try and find a way to get all wheel pick up in there.

I'm going to play with 4456, which i have not re-assembled it after painting yet (need a decoder,so i'm keeping it and its parts in the box) and see if i can isolate the wheels and such so that i can get all wheel pick up. My paint job seems to have been done well, it looks super smooth and all those very VERY thin details are all still visible, so i'm thinking its almost ready to get out at the club as well, once the decoder is in. .

still have to paint that third one, but I'm going to hold off on it. I'm either going to paint it as 4465 or 4444, since both seemed to have their old PRR numbers and those radio equipped decals on them during Conrail.

If it worked fine in DC and isnt working so well in DCC might want to try one of these german decoders, like a Lenz gold or a ESU Lokpilot. They seem to work the best with any motor and any power situation. Esp after spending all that money on a brass engine you want it to run as good as it looks!

what type of decoder is it?if you set it up for PnP try it in another loco,I havent changed my over yet but will look into it,I hope those pics worked out as it looks like they did (great detail on the towers) I will
have on hand real soon NJ Transit stuff for sale,engines,cars,mow all custom work

cnj1524 wrote:what type of decoder is it?if you set it up for PnP try it in another loco,I havent changed my over yet but will look into it,I hope those pics worked out as it looks like they did (great detail on the towers) I will
have on hand real soon NJ Transit stuff for sale,engines,cars,mow all custom work

They have TCS MC2 decoders. I've put these in other units and they work just fine. I just tried fiddling with the truck pick ups. they looked alright, and i gave them an extra bend just to make sure they were in fact wiping the wheels. the locomotive still ran funny. I'm going to take it appart tommorow and check the decoder. maybe its damaged/defective.

It still bugs me though, the first two days i ran it with the decoder, it was fine. I wish i had another small decoder to test it against.


as for the NJ transit stuff, you KNOW i'm interested, especially if you have some ALP44s and such.

green_elite_cab wrote:BAM!

Well, i've begun work on my more realistic, super-detailed catenary. THIS is what i wanted to do for that contest, but could not.

I basically only have one pole mostly done, as it is TEDIOUS adding some of the details, mainly the grab iron ladders.

I applaud your efforts. I think you'll find as you progress through your project, you'll find ways to save time in construction. As you build more of these items and get used to the methods, you'll see your construction time go down as well. Looking forward to more progress.

-otto-

Here are some additional construction photos

I built a few more poles, and I'll probably have a couple bridges done sometime in the coming weeks.



Using a high speed ball-shaped cutter and a dremel press, i can make small dimples in the metal that keep the wires in one place. it also fills in with the excess solder, so that it doesn't protrude on the surface as much.



I still prefer a razor saw and a miter box for cutting the poles though. I feel this cuts more straightly, and besides, i don't have any power tool that could cut these three-foot pieced of h-column stock easily.