Canadian in September

Does anyone have a rundown of the Canadian consist lately? How many cars could one expect on the Canadian in September?

I am finally doing my annual trek across Canada - planes trains and automobiles seem to be in order. Vacationing in British Columbia (Vancouver, Jasper, and Quesnel area). But my trip across Canada this time will be eastbound though, picking up VIA Rail Canada in Jasper. I'll be travelling in mid-September. Hopefully the train will make it all the way to Toronto as a "train" and not a "bus" and be relatively on-time into Toronto. I've decided to take Amtrak's Maple Leaf back to NYC rather than trying to fly back to LaGuardia early the next day.

Appears they have definitely added more Chateau series cars to the Canadian this season. For example, on my departure day from Jasper it appears the rear-most cars between the diner and Park Car are all Chateau series cars. Since I wanted a Manor series roomette (they just seem larger to me than in Chateau sleepers and offer larger windows), I had to settle for a car a little further away from the Park Car than what I'd normally try to book. Appears I am just ahead of the Diner and Skyline Car. I would think there's another diner in the consist "ahead" if you will, of my sleeper. I think I am in car 215, which I believe is a five car walk "back" to the Park Car.

But I wonder if they'll add sleepers to the train, as I am noticing double bedrooms and triple bedrooms are sold out. Also, I am in in roomette 3 in the Manor series car.

If I recall correctly, this roomette would be on the left side of the train heading eastbound to Toronto?

According to reports I've read, the Canadian has been running around 20 cars, ranging from 15 to 27, most of the summer. I expect it should be about the same next month.

As an example of a typical consist, the westbound Canadian leaving Toronto on August 7 was:
F40PH-2 6456, F40PH-2 6441, baggage 8615, coach 8139, coach 8129, coach 8108, Skyline 8517, Brock Manor, Fraser Manor, Lorne Manor, Skyline 8500, diner Fairholme, Hunter Manor, Draper Manor, Abbot Manor, Chateau Papineau, Skyline 8515, diner Imperial, Osler Manor, Allan Manor, Bell Manor, and Tweedsmuir Park.
Some trains will have more Chateau and fewer Manor sleepers.

I'm not sure about this but I think car 215 would be the fifth sleeper following the coaches. The 22x cars (if any) would be between the second third Skylines (if there was a third), and the cars between the last diner and the Park car would be numbered 23x.

Do not expect the Canadian to arrive on time, or for that matter even the same calendar date on which it is due. From my observations passing through Toronto Union Station (usually on two of the three arrival days each week) the usual ETA for the Canadian is between 1:00 a.m. and 7:00 a.m. This should allow a convenient connection with the Maple Leaf. I am told by a VIA manager from Winnipeg that if the train arrives after 2:00 a.m. passengers may stay on board for the remainder of the night. But if it’s before that you will be left on your own. There is no rhyme nor reason how the decision is made for bustitution from Capreol. I have heard of the Canadian being short-turned at Capreol when only six hours late, yet allowed to proceed to Toronto when 12 hours late. It doesn’t happen all that often, but I no longer take the Canadian eastbound on the Winnipeg – Toronto portion as the prospect of a long bus trip is even less appealing than arriving in Toronto after the last GO train has departed.

VIA can tell you how many sleepers will be on the Canadian. VIA runs as many sleepers as they can when the demand is there, but sleepers will be pulled from the consist when the load is light. This summer season I have seen many departures from Toronto with no Chateau sleepers at all. The eastbound car line numbers for an “average” summer consist are 210, 211, 212 (then Skyline and diner) 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218 (Skyline and diner) 220, 221, 222, 239 – the Park car. The Chateau sleepers are 216, 217, 218. The number of sleepers between the two sets of Skyline and diners is variable. I have seen as few as one this summer and at times several extras. Passengers in car 215 will be assigned to the first diner unless all or most of the Chateau sleepers are cancelled. If the train is exceptionally long there would be a third Skyline and diner added to the middle of the consist, but this year I don’t believe there has been any train that long. Last year there were several 30-car trains. Traditionally September can be busier than July and August, even though the summer fares don’t start until 22nd Oct.

Have a great trip!

I agree that I am also not fond of travelling eastbound, but since I only did this eastbound trip about twice, and typically travel westbound, I thought I'd try it one last time eastbound before the new schedule change. From what I confirmed with VIA three times, which I still can't comprehend (and I don't think neither can they) I am in front of the last Skyline and Diner, then there are three sleepers between the diner and Park Car (which does make sense). I am going to call again tomorrow and see what I get after knowing this info. I've been told there are a few Chateau sleepers on this particular run. I typically try to be between the rear most diner and Park Car. Double bedrooms and Triple bedrooms for this trip coming up in September are alread sold out. I was offered a roomette in a Chateau car, but I just don't like the roomettes in these cars. Again they just seem smaller. Although I've been told this will get me closer to the Park Car.

I'll have to call VIA Rail again tomorrow as they are just not making any sense. I'm also going to see what they say about late arrivals into Toronto. So perhaps I should try to get a car number in the 22X series, even though they claim these are all Chateau sleepers. Perhaps they are adding or subtracting cars at Jasper or there is some tour group and they've re-arranged to put the Chateau series cars as the last three sleepers? Are the 20X series coach cars?

Perhaps I should cancel my hotel room too in Toronto. Hah!

Thanks for all the info. I have to ask, marquisofmississauga, have you seen or heard of any bustitutions lately from Capreol? I doubt I'd be able to get any one-way car rental from Capreol or nearby Sudbury to Toronto. That's my worst fear - being bussed from Capreol, so I know I am taking a risk on this. Are they keeping an extra consist at all in Toronto for the Canadian? I would think not during the summer peak season. It's just amazing to me that this train is typically on-time or early westbound but can be a disaster with on-time-performance eastbound. And I think it has similiar padding.

And for both of you, would you book a roomette in a Manor series car over a Chateau series car, if given the option? And if a Chateau roomette, would you take the "two step up" room or the lower room? Just curious.

I'll check the consist again before I board in Jasper - closer to departure day in mid-September - to see if there is any "Manor" series car closer to the Park Car or if a car's been added etc. It's just a personal preference to be closer to the Park Car. But again, for some odd reason they are telling me the last three cars in between the LAST diner and Park Car are Chateau series cars. I also find that hard to believe. Again, they keep saying I'll be five cars away from the Park car, and this supposedly includes the Skyline and diner. I'll call again tomorrow to see what story I get now, after knowing some inside scoop with the car numbering. Much appreciated.

If anyone is familiar with Toronto, how far is the Delta Chelsea from Toronto? They told me about 1 km. I usually stay at the Fairmont across the street, but they say it is booked that night. Not a problem. I was going to fly back to NYC, but I decided on the Amtrak Maple Leaf instead (which will also likely be late into NYC). I'll have no problem in being allowed to sleep over aboard the Canadian if its late into Toronto.

On my last trip, we were on-time eastbound until we ran into some wildfires in Ontario where we had to be escorted through at slower speeds (I was shocked after reading the papers the next day we were even allowed to proceed at all). Then we made up time upon arriving into Capreol, but then lost 3 hours after just leaving Capreol when a car thought it could beat the train (going 70 mph) across the tracks. So we arrived into Toronto around 11 p.m. I then had to endure an hour taxi ride out to the airport, and then get up for an early morning flight for work the next day. Needless to say I was exhausted. This year I decided on the Maple Leaf, rather than trying to fly, knowing the Canadian has issues eastbound and I don't necessarily have to be at work the next day after arriving in from the Canadian to Toronto. I will have an international wireless card for laptop and international service for the blackberry while away. I'm sure I'll get some signal near major cities, but not counting on a lot. Somehow I think my roomette will become a personal office, as the trip on VIA sort of concludes my trip!

The last bustitution from Capreol was several weeks ago when the Canadian (due to a CN derailment) was running about 24 hours late. Westbound passengers were also treated to a bus ride up to Capreol. A spare set of equipment in peak season isn’t possible, although there has been the rare extra consist put together in winter. Occasionally VIA will put together a shuttle train of coaches and maybe a Park car to Capreol, but I’ve never known a shuttle train from Capreol. Canadian railfans have a perverse acceptance of buses; you can get in big trouble complaining about the horrors of a long-distance bus ride. (So I no longer consider myself a railfan; I am a rail travel fan!) By the way, it was only recently that VIA changed its policy of allowing passengers to remain on board in Toronto after 2:00 a.m. I’ve heard of several runs that arrived at 3:00 or 4:00 when passengers were turfed out – and not even allowed to wait in Union Station for the balance of the night.

Westbound trains usually run closer to on time, but Tuesday’s departure from Toronto was six and a half hours late (due to an 11-hour late arrival in Toronto) and was reported 12 hours late getting into Vancouver yesterday. But at least the passengers were allowed to travel by train all the way which, of course, is what they paid $2,000 for.

The Delta Chelsea is approximately 3 km (2 miles) from Union Station and is on Gerrard St. between two subway stops, so a short taxi ride would be a better option. The Strathcona Hotel beside the Royal York is very popular with rail passengers. They offer small but perfectly acceptable rooms and usually a discount for VIA passengers. It’s too bad the Royal York is sold out. Although often pricey, it’s the traditional place to stay for fans of CPR elegance - an ex-CP hotel and an ex-CP train, both of which are beautifully restored.

It is highly unlikely that Chateau cars will be operated between the last diner and the Park car (line # 20, 21, 22.) I’ve seen and read only of Manor cars in that position for many years. Any VIA agent should be able to confirm that. My regular ticket agent in Toronto has shown me the computer screen and there is a detailed reproduction of every sleeper – just like the pre-computer age diagrams - so there should be no doubt. I saw one consist in May that had seven Chateau sleepers; they were all ahead of the second diner. I personally prefer the Manor roomettes, mainly for the ease of handling the bed without one’s bum being stuck out in the corridor. The “upper” Chateau roomettes are significantly larger than the “lower” ones. There is more luggage space as well. The “lowers” have the advantage of the “mortuary slab” bed which makes getting up in the night easier, but they are very small rooms. The “uppers” (rooms 3,4,7,8) provide a smooth ride. The odd-numbered rooms are on the left side of the train.

My next trip on the Canadian is to Vancouver in November. My wife and I were lucky to get the much-sought after bedroom “F” in car 122, just ahead of the Park car. We will be flying home from Winnipeg, though. It saves a lot of money, anxiety and (notwithstanding what Canadian railfans think of air travel) I have found that option to be much more reliable than the Canadian on that portion of the trip.

There is no "Canadian" into Toronto today (Monday 25 Aug.) The arrivals monitor at Toronto Union Station says "Train replaced by bus" with an ETA of 20:00, which is on time. It does not say from where the unfortunate passengers were being bussed. CN had a derailment Sunday at 17:00 near Allanwater, Ont. VIA's stop is called Allanwater Bridge and it is 1401 km from Toronto. The Canadian, the rare time it is on time, takes about 24 hours for that trip. The nearest road west of Allanwater Bridge is Savant Lake, from where there is a highway to Thunder Bay. VIA usually flies people for very long distances, but I have no idea what happened this time. This being peak season, there will be no Canadian for passengers Tuesday in Toronto. But in previous similar circumstances, passengers were flown to Winnipeg.

Spoke to a VIA agent on the phone this evening, before reading this post above, and they said passengers on the Canadian are now being flown between Toronto and Winnipeg - due to the derailment - or at least that's the option for sleeping car passengers. Perhaps coach passengers are being bussed, not sure. And also not sure what they did for yesterday's Canadian arrival into Toronto, August 25th, Monday. Not sure if passengers had the option to be bussed or fly and from where I have no idea. I wonder if people had the option to go back to Winnipeg and fly from there or take a bus to the Capreol/Sudbury area in order to make it eastbound into Toronto for a Monday, August 25th arrival.

But it sounds like from the post above that the Canadian didn't make it even close to Capreol. So perhaps for those on a bus, this was a double bus ride - from a remote location somewhere in Ontario to Capreol and then Capreol eastbound?

Does the Sudbury area offer a descent airport for which passengers could fly in/out of? I've always thought of it as a small little airport at best.

And yes, westbound passenger for Tuesday 8/26 are being affected, as are passengers for Thursday, August 28th as sleepers are being blocked, as they will be flown to Winnipeg. That's westbound, so I assume similar arrangement are in place eastbound at this point. They are hopefully the derailment, necessary repairs, and equipment will be in place by Saturday, August 30.

So it appears by Saturday, August 30, VIA's Canadian may be back to normal on the rails at least.

Obviously this train is getting hammered - eastbound the worst I guess. Good grief! This sure makes this eastbound trip I am about to take in mid-September hit or miss and interesting at best. I am also wondering if I should look into a plane ride from Winnipeg to Toronto!

jp1822 wrote:Obviously this train is getting hammered - eastbound the worst I guess. Good grief! This sure makes this eastbound trip I am about to take in mid-September hit or miss and interesting at best. I am also wondering if I should look into a plane ride from Winnipeg to Toronto!

I certainly wouldn’t let the thought of a possible “bustitution” interfere with the anticipation of an upcoming trip. If s**t happen, just take it in stride.

I’ve been bused a couple of times now on both the Ocean and the Canadian when the lines have been blocked by CN and CFMG derailments. I realize that to some people a bus ride is just not an option but I’ve also noticed that to most, including myself, it’s just no big deal and part of the adventure of travel. I’ve also noticed that a lot of camaraderie develops among those involved: “we’re all in this together - so lets make the best of it” and strangers who you might not have even spoken previously on the trip are now friends. On one trip, an older gentlemen, who I don’t think VIA could have satisfied other than provide a personal limo and driver, eventually came around when told to “lighten-up” by the others and I think actually enjoyed himself at a truck-stop meal (provided by VIA) along the way.

I’ve always arrived at my destination and have been well compensated by VIA for any minor inconvenience of the bustitition.

Is the Canadian back to an all-rail route, or rather are the tracks clear from the CN derailment that occurred earlier in the week, as posted above? Just curious. Hope there were no injuries aboard th CN train.

The Canadian went back to normal on its next scheduled run. Thursday's departure from Toronto was on time or close to it. Friday night's arrival of the Canadian in Toronto was posted as 23:30 - that is 23:30 of the same day on which it is due - which is about as early as I've seen it posted for many months.

There is a huge number of Canadian railfans/trainspotters who think that long-distance bus trips are just fine, but to most rail travel enthusiasts they are not. They are cr*p. (Rail enthusiasts abroad don't have this love-affair with bustitutions. When I've told people in Great Britain that VIA thinks nothing of replacing a late train with a five hour - and maybe more - bus ride they get weak at the knees and turn pale.) Certainly many bustitutions are inevitable due to genuine emergency situations, but many times VIA just finds that it is easier and cheaper to replace late-running trains by buses and give partial refunds for sleeper space and bus credits, most of which are never used by the Canadian's passengers. A VIA manager I met on a train a few years ago smiled sheepishly and admitted that.

But the odds are very much in your favour of getting to Toronto by train and if very late, arriving in Toronto early in the morning is a preview of what will happen starting December! If you don't have your own mobile phone to cancel a hotel reservation from a late-running train, the Service Managers normally allow you to use theirs.

Thanks to all for your help! It also appears that your positioning of where my sleeper is on the eastbound Canadian is actually correct.

Appears that they will be using the Chateau cars on my eastbound trip - as they at least have space sold in these sleepers. I'll stick with my Manor series sleeer roomette #3, which I believe will be on the left side of the train. Course they could still re-arrange the consists. However, I just can't bring myself to taking a roomette in a Chateau car. It's just not worth just trying to a "couple" of cars closer to the Park Car.

Do coach passengers get to "dine" in the diner during this period of peak season - or are they relegated to the adjacent Skyline Car? Just curious. I've travelled on the route in the offseason and that's when the diner is sort of fair game for all passengers. But I once heard that's not necessarily the case in peak season.

Thanks Again!

Appears the westbound Canadian that will arrive into Vancouver on Friday Sept 19th - will be a definite late arrival (as in the late afternoon hours). Last I had heard it wasn't expected into Jasper until 21:45 (10:45 p.m.) - nearly 8 hours late. Hope they have the "spare train set" in Vancouver to get the eastbound out on Friday Sept 20th to at least give it a chance in travelling eastbound to arrive in Toronto at a descent hour. I shouldn't say "spare train set," in Vancouver, as I believe it is part of the normal rotation now. Late trains only get later it seems on the Canadian's route now.

I was in Vancouver a couple weeks ago and it appeared a spare train set was available in Vancouver. The train arriving into Vancouver westbound on Friday is of pretty good length - it's got three Chateau cars in tow! No idea how the eastbound Canadian us running recently - I imagine haphazardly at best based on previous posts.

Anyone know why the westbound Canadian, that will be arriving into Vancouver on Friday, September 19th, is running so late? One rumor I had heard was that it had a late westbound start out of Toronto? Course this was likely caused by a late arrival of the previous eastbound etc.

My wife and I just took the Canadian for the first time ever from Vancouver to Toronto Sept 9. We loved it. The food was great and in general, the VIA employees are very helpful and neat in their appearance. We had 20 or 21 cars in the consist. We were in a Chateau series bedroom in car 216. Two cars behind us was the dome car, then the "B" diner and a car or two further was the Park car. Met lots of interesting people along the way - mainly from Canada, Ireland, Australia and America. The scenery is fantastic, especially in the Rockies. I enjoyed all the lakes and trees in Ontario also. Unfortunately, for most people, we lost a lot of time in Ontario. At one point we were stopped for about 3 hours with no explanation given, however we met a few westbound CN freights. Perhaps one of them was broken down on single track or something, but we never were told anything. We were only about 1 hour late going into Ontario bur arrived in Toronto 6 1/2 hours late. Oh well, it was a great experience and something I'd do again. We stayed over one full day in Toronto, having never been there before, then took Amtrak's Maple Leaf back home to New York State the next day. We were on that train for about 10 hours and it was on time all the way!!

Had a fantastic trip eastbound on the Canadian. We had approx. 27 cars in the consist. There were three head-end units, one baggage car, only two coaches then two diners, three skyline domes, the Park Car, and the remainder were either Chateau or Manor series sleepers (approx 18). I only made it back to the Park Car once, as my sleeper was in the middle of the consist - as was noted above. There were three Chateau sleepers in use. The attendants originally in my Manor series sleeper, had to give up there rooms to boarding passengers east of Winnipeg. Included in the consist were three Chateau sleepers deadheading back to Toronto from Winnipeg, as they supposedly have some group tours coming up and needed the Chateau sleepers, or that's what I was told. I did notice - as I boarded the Maple Leaf for the States - the Canadian was pulling in and there were a number of Chateau cars in the consist going out westbound - and a long consist as well. The westbounds that we passed, on our trip eastbound, also seemed to be fairly long. So I guess September is a busy month for the Canadian. There were a number of tour groups on our train.......

We were about an hour late leaving Jasper eastbound, then lost another hour coming out of Winnipeg. We made up some time by Sioux Lookout, but then lost it all and fell almost three hours behind when coming into Capreol. We arrived into Toronto at 10:30 p.m.

I always thought the food on the Canadian was good - but for this trip I thought it was especially good!