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  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
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Binghamton NY - New York City NYC Passenger Rail Discussion

General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

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Re: Take the Train from Binghamton to NYC?

  by PassRailSavesFuel
 
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:
northjerseybuff wrote:I
Amtrak doesn't need to get tied up with the ongoing Lackawanna Cutoff fiasco. Keeping in mind that Scranton, PA only has a (rapidly decreasing) population of about 70,000, there doesn't seem to be any justification for spending $550 million to restore passenger rail service. There isn't the population to justify intercity rail travel, and the distances involved are too great to make it a suburb of the New York metropolitan area. The fact remains that the rails were removed because there wasn't any conceivable freight business, let alone any demand for passenger rail. If anything, the economic and population issues are even less favorable to passenger rail to Scranton than they were 45 years ago.
This is a bad plan and a colossal waste of taxpayer money.
So why is there bumper to bumper traffic on the Interstate over Mount Pocono? Scranton really is a suburb of New York. It sure feels like it, to me. With a Tilt train takeing those many, many curves, the 1960's times of travel would be cut in half. Removeing the rails was a Conrail thing. They ripped everything up they could, everywhere. 45 years ago we didn't have $2 and 3 dollar gas. Also Phoebe Snow was not a one coach train at the end. On the last day it ran in sections! 550 million? They should spend billions!

Re: Binghamton to Syracue to NYC?

  by PassRailSavesFuel
 
hrfcarl wrote:What would it take to improve the approximate 75 mile stretch of NYS&W trackage between Binghamton and Syracuse to diesel commuter train speeds (45 to 65 mph range)? The idea here is to create an at least 3x a day each way commuter train to connect the national accessible transportation systems in Syracuse with the colleges in Cortland and Binghamton in < 1.5 hours. Couple this with other threads talking improvements to the trackage between Albany and Buffalo and getting to NYC via train might not be that bad, even if not one seat or direct route. If enough ridership then maybe the cut-off should be rebuilt and route taken over by Amtrak?
Why not use a Talgo Tilt train? Higher speeds on today's low speed curves. One thing the Lackawanna had was lots and lots of curves. Steam shovel, MaMa Heater, Slide Rock, Point of Gap, and humdreds more. Washington State has this equipment, now Wisconsin DOT just bought two of them. So you can get these trains too.

Re:

  by PassRailSavesFuel
 
Dieter wrote:Politics of THREE STATES comes into play. The Erie line is too slow, it would have to go through Wilkes Barre, Scranton and shoot out across New Jersey on a reconstructed Lackawanna Cutoff. Everybody would want in on the action, making it necessary for a high speed train to make it all practical, opening a whole new can of worms.

Do we really need it? YES WE DO. Now, who's going to figure it out? Schumer can't do it alone.

D/
The Erie won't be too slow with a Talgo Tilt train. But the Lackawanna is the way to go. The whole problem has been the Lackawanna is a interstate railroad. The federal government which is in charge of interstate issues like this. Has been anti-passenger rail. Hopefully this has changed. Time will tell. It was three states because the federal government won't do it's job.

Re: Take the Train from Binghamton to NYC?

  by PassRailSavesFuel
 
I think many people on this list think the trains to Binghamton were empty. Not so. I rode train #22 what was left of the Erie Limited Bingo to Hoboken Memorial Day weekend 1966. Our one car (stillwell coach) was full right out of Binghamton. There were three 1000 streamliner cars on the same track ready to go. I asked the conductor why not take them? He said "Special orders from the head offices in Cleveland, don't touch them" We turned people away at every station down the line to Hoboken. Then the railroad said " See how low the ridership is.
Not long after, the Erie stopped takeing credit cards, if you check the timetables the fares shot right up. And surprize, the ridership went down. The mail made the trains profitable, the highway lobby got this put on roads. Now the fuel bill for the trucks is breaking the Post Office.

Re: Take the Train from Binghamton to NYC?

  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
PassRailSavesFuel wrote: Scranton really is a suburb of New York. It sure feels like it, to me.
No, Scranton, PA has never been a "suburb" of New York either in a geographic, demographic or historical sense.
PassRailSavesFuel wrote: Removeing the rails was a Conrail thing. They ripped everything up they could, everywhere.
The rails were removed from the Lackawanna Cutoff because the route was largely disused and redundant at the time. There hadn't been any passenger service in years and freight traffic had pretty much come to a halt as well. The rails themselves had some intrinsic value for either scrap or reuse, so it made sense for Conrail to remove them, at the time.

It's also worth noting that the State of New Jersey could have purchase the Cutoff, with the rails intact, at any time between 1979 and 1984, but failed to do so.
PassRailSavesFuel wrote:Also Phoebe Snow was not a one coach train at the end. On the last day it ran in sections!
All too frequently, there was a massive turn out by railfans of the last day of any passenger service. However, most of the time, the coaches ran mostly empty.
PassRailSavesFuel wrote:550 million? They should spend billions!
Indeed, I fear that the $551 billion figure will prove to be far too low. There is the potential to waste "billions" on rail service to Scranton.

Re: Take the Train from Binghamton to NYC?

  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
PassRailSavesFuel wrote:I think many people on this list think the trains to Binghamton were empty. Not so. I rode train #22 what was left of the Erie Limited Bingo to Hoboken Memorial Day weekend 1966. Our one car (stillwell coach) was full right out of Binghamton. There were three 1000 streamliner cars on the same track ready to go. I asked the conductor why not take them? He said "Special orders from the head offices in Cleveland, don't touch them" We turned people away at every station down the line to Hoboken. Then the railroad said " See how low the ridership is.
I don't see any proof of a conspiracy. I see peak holiday travel and coaches that might have been "bad ordered" for any number of reasons.
PassRailSavesFuel wrote:Not long after, the Erie stopped takeing credit cards,
Very few people had credit cards back in 1966. Somehow I doubt that many affluent business travelers were taking E-L trains at that late date.

Re: Binghamton to Syracue to NYC?

  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
PassRailSavesFuel wrote: Why not use a Talgo Tilt train? Higher speeds on today's low speed curves. One thing the Lackawanna had was lots and lots of curves. Steam shovel, MaMa Heater, Slide Rock, Point of Gap, and humdreds more. Washington State has this equipment, now Wisconsin DOT just bought two of them. So you can get these trains too.
A Talgo would be incompatible with the high level platforms in New York Penn and any number of other eastern stations.

Re: Take the Train from Binghamton to NYC?

  by PassRailSavesFuel
 
goodnightjohnwayne wrote: I don't see any proof of a conspiracy. I see peak holiday travel and coaches that might have been "bad ordered" for any number of reasons.

Yes, it was peak hoilday travel, but believe me I was there, the cars were not bad order.The conductor said this.He knew what was going on. He was the one that would have to face the public. That's why the cars were there for years, as spares ready to go if needed. There were cars in Scranton,Youngstown,Hornell, and of course Port Jervis.
Very few people had credit cards back in 1966. [/quote wrote: Not so, maybe because I lived in Manhattan but I was aware of Master Charge, American Express which NYC took. New Haven had it's own card. I myself had a rail travel credit card. Which did not charge interest on balances! It also took EL sometimes six months to send the bill out.

Re: Take the Train from Binghamton to NYC?

  by lvrr325
 
Can you beat the ghost of the dead horse?

Re: Take the Train from Binghamton to NYC?

  by oibu
 
"So why is there bumper to bumper traffic on the Interstate over Mount Pocono? "

Umm, by "over mt. Pocono" I assume you mean I-80 from the Nj border to MT. Pocono, from thence back down I-80 to the Nj border. The reasons are lots of commuters during the week from the Stroudsburg/Mt. P. area, and lots of "weekenders" on the weekends between teh same points.

Drive 380 from Mt. Pocono to I-84 even on a Sat. am (peak travel time for the NYC refugees) and it's seldom if ever what I'd call "crowded". Sometimes there can be steady traffic on it, but that's hardly "bumper to bumper".

The only part of this horse that still has some living tissue that may be salvageable is the Stroudsburg-NJ section 9and personally I'd just as soon not see that as it will just be one more enticement to further urban/suburban sprawl westward).

Binghamton? Scranton? No sir, that's just political hooplah and grandstanding, also known as "touting the potential to obtain some pork to one's constituents who don't think they get a big enough piece so that said constituents may view you as their champion in the quest for more pork".

Re: Binghamton to Syracue to NYC?

  by neroden
 
hrfcarl wrote:What would it take to improve the approximate 75 mile stretch of NYS&W trackage between Binghamton and Syracuse to diesel commuter train speeds (45 to 65 mph range)?
Short answer, a summary? Enough money to rebuild the track to those standards, which is quite expensive. You also have to install a signal system, and given current mandates, a system with PTC, which probably means cab signalling will be the cheapest option. And upgrade some grade crossings. Oh, plus have the political will to close other grade crossings (a lot of the major roads are grade-separated and the nearby grade crossings are simply redundant).

The ROW is totally suitable for faster speeds than you suggested, probably 90 mph or more with tilting equipment. The real question is under what circumstances the passenger traffic would be there -- and how to get it connected up to the stations at either end, and how to build a station in Cortland. It's not worth considering unless service gets to Binghamton from the south, or the Park Street Bridge reconnects the NYS&W to the train station in Syracuse.

Re: Binghamton to Syracue to NYC?

  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
The Park Street Bridge is the only physical limitation - and now it appears that the long delayed project might finally be completed. I do think that the issue of signaling is a moot point, as the limitation of a 59 MPH speed limit is less serious than the geographic and ridership issues.

Putting aside the viability issues and concentrating on the operational concerns, once the Park Street Bridge connection is in place, then the matter boils down to track structure. What are the current NYS&W speed restrictions on this line? If the freights are running at 40 MPH, then hypothetically, passenger service could run at 59 MPH.

.

Re: Take the Train from Binghamton to NYC?

  by lvrr325
 
The only limitation for Amtrak to run into Syracuse off the NYS&W is the hand-throw at 292.7, there is no reason Amtrak can't use the existing Park Street bridge they already use multiple times a day seven days a week.

Of course Amtrak from Syracuse to Binghamton or Scranton may be the most pointless service ever short of Amtrak to Geneva. Even at 59 MPH I can get there by car faster - and odds are even in a gas guzzler it will be cheaper too.

I'm starting to think we're beating the corpse of the dead cow that the soul of the dead horse was reincarnated into, that's also had a full life and died.
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