Amtrak vs Flying

x-press wrote: I believe in making train service better, and I think Amtrak and commuter lines could learn a lot from the better-run airlines

Things Amtrak and commuter lines could learn from airlines:

* Platform assignments long before the train arrives - I knew where my plane was going to be a week in advance.

* On line ticketing. My co-traveler made the reservation, 24 hours in advance, I did the electronic thing and got a printout. At the airport, it was zap zap the barcode, and ready to go. I could pick and chose seats online, and all. I could even see where the seat was and see what kind of equipment (the 757 or the dreaded 737) I was getting.

* Airport and onboard staff. The airline folks are nice, friendly, and helpful. I'm not a frequent flier, but they were ready to help me through the process.

* Cleanliness - even in 'third world' San Juan, the airport was clean, the bathrooms were clean, the planes were clean. Penn Station's bathrooms were far far worse than anything I saw down there.

* On time performance and keeping passengers updated. We were on time, to the minute, leaving. And we arrived on time or early. And when we got de-iced, we were told what was going on.

* Easy, wide boarding.

Things the airlines need to learn from Amtrak:

* The whole process. Get in, get your boarding pass, check bags, go through security, find your gate. And the 1st class / steerage class boarding thing.

* Baggage. Maybe people wouldn't want to carry-on the planet with them if the airlines didn't lose everything?

* In flight 'entertainment' i.e., bad B rated movie. *yawn*

* Seats designed for human beings.

* Quieter planes. The 757's not bad, even behind the wing, but the 737s I've been on sucked - noisy and the engines sounded like irritated blenders (CFM-56), or just so loud you can't hear yourself trying to think (JT-8D on Aloha years ago, no our plane wasn't a convertible).

* Smoother maneuvering. The outbound pilot was having flashbacks to his Air Force days. Ugh. Inbound wasn't as bad.

* Airports - they're designed by people who like twisty roads and ramps everywhere.

Things airports and railroads need to learn:

* Connecting travel arrangements - ticket machines by the luggage claim, so I can get a ticket while I'm waiting. Along with up to date train status info right there.

* Connections - The Airtrain to train station setup at Newark sucks. Look at Amsterdam, etc for an example of how to do it, i.e. put the train station IN the airport, not sort of next to it with a sluggish monorail connector. JFK, etc aren't any better.

* Architecture - Most airports are ugly, and most train stations are just as ugly. Airports all look the same, and train stations always go for that stupid 'olde tyme train station' look, which is just silly. Not everywhere's a Grand Central or 30th street, and frankly, I'd like a little variation anyway....

You can buy amtrak tickets online, and MBTA tickets too... except for interzone fares but close enough

i don't know if the airline reservation system is "state of the art " .

WARNING : contains alot of offensive lanquage .

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZl718y0dk

There are plenty of adventures possible when you fly too. Like a crash landing in the Hudson River, an overnight stay in the
airport at Houston because of bad weather, six hours on a plane waiting to take off for one reason or another or maybe a
detour to some other destination again for weather or airport conditions.
In corridors where there is adequate train service you are probably generally much better off by train than by air. Who
wants to go through the BS at an airport in New York for an hour or more plus trying to get to the airport in the first place
when you can get on a train, be reasonably comfortable and be in Boston or Washington or Albany usually when you are
supposed to.
45 Minutes waiting for baggage at an airport, I am sure that this is a reasonable amount of time to use a cell phone to
contact NJT or Amtrak for connecting schedules.
While I totally agree that we can't compare our travel facilities with most of Europe and lots of other places too, we can
take advantage of what we have with a little advance planning and preparation. If you know you are going to use ground
transportation, how much trouble is it to carry a couple of small local timetables with you? They still print both commuter
rail and Amtrak timetables you know.
Travel does not always need to be a wild adventure, you just need to prepare yourself for it, when I took combined rail and
air trips in the past, I almost always used public transportation to the airports involved, saved me money and generally
worked better too.
Today being retired in Florida I have not been in an airplane since 2002 when I had to make an emergency trip by air to
North Carolina for the death of my mother and I am not planning to anytime soon either. When I go north I drive but
getting around in New York, New England and surrounding areas is not very difficult by train as long as I have the timetables
to plan a trip. If you can't get a timetable in person, you can always get it right here on the internet.
Noel Weaver

Gilbert B Norman wrote:A factor that must be considered amongst those familiar with both the air and rail mode of travel is that most of the time, the traveler - especially a business traveler - simply wants A to B transportation and be delivered at destination without incident - in short, no 'adventures" please.

So far as I am concerned, there is simply "no such a thing" as an Amtrak LD journey that does not prove to be some kind of adventure. By no means does that always represent unpleasant experiences, but simply that something will occur to make the journey memorable. For a business traveler, away from those here who report use of Amtrak LD for such, the motto is simply 'Get there, get back, get it over'. All one need do is read the business travel articles and columns that appear each Tuesday in both the Times and Journal. For those using Amtrak LD for business travel, the burden is on them to show the boss (taking up his time in the process) that use of Amtrak has been cost effective with regards both to utility and cost.

"It ain't fun no more'; thank God I no longer need do such in this life.

No easy task. This coming Wednesday afternoon I fly Newark EWR to Dallas DFW, overnight in hotel, meeting Thurday, evening flight back to Newark due in around 10 p.m. Cost for flight $283, hotel 169. I would have to take several vacation days to be allowed to take Amtrak. I do take it for work from Newark on NEC as far as Boston and Washington.

x-press wrote:I still think that the New York-Los Angeles, Boston-Florida type trips that are CONSTANTLY cited both here and in the media are "straw man" trips. After some prodding, the good folks on this board have in the past proven capable of debating the merits and drawbacks of more reasonable itineraries (Washington-Boston sleeper, Baltimore-Charleston, Chi-Denver).

Nonetheless, Mr Nasadowski's post makes some good points. The "overall experience" of train travel, INCLUDING the beloved corridor, strikes me as a bit "clunky" compared to air travel. Most airports I've used seem modern and fairly well run, planes USUALLY reliable/ontime (some dreadful exceptions rivaling all but the worst Amtrak delays). The dreaded check-in doesn't seem all that bad to me, especially if you're intelligent enough not to drag your huge steamer trunk through (YES, I would pay the dreaded service charge if I had to, to avoid it). Communications seem clearer, loadings more organized, no need to fight for seats, as they are reserved (even Southwest's boarding procedure is positively ZEN-LIKE compared to NYP's madhouse). The seats are indeed smaller than most of Amtrak's, but the more ergo-nomic and modern design seems to compensate for that somewhat.

I like flying,at least 85% of the time. I see no need to bash air travel; I believe in making train service better, and I think Amtrak and commuter lines could learn a lot from the better-run airlines. I DO wish we could move a bit beyond the "did you know that trains are SLOWER than those newfangled aero-planes?!" argument. Been there, done that (about 30 years before I was born).

My honeymoon itinerary this summer will involve a combination of flying and long distance rail, the best mode for each segment being the one used. I don't see what the big deal is, one way or the other.

JPS

I think you would find French and German rail travel more like air travel - at least as far as info is concerned. Eurostar is very slick. Rail could be made better, but it would take money and a determined effort to plan it.

I live in Clovis, CA, immediately east of Fresno. There is a commonly heard refrain around here by some who want air service between Fresno and Sacramento. When I hear this, I am quick to remind people that there are currently 2 trains making the trip each day, traveling from downtown to downtown. The trip is about 3 1/2 hours on the San Joaquin. Even though the flight time would probably be about 45 minutes, the time to and from the airports, plus the time through security likely makes the actual time about equal. I know the cost of a ticket favors the train overwhelmingly.

I have traveled on Amtrak LD trains quite a bit in the last couple of years, from here in Clovis, to Florida (via Chicago and DC). On a vacation type journey, the real comparison can only be made between the train and driving my own car. The way we drive, it is always quicker to take the train (provided Amtrak serves the area where we go). It is tough to make a real comparison between the train and either driving or flying long distance. Trains are very competitive on shorter distances, there is little doubt about it. My hope would be for this country to concentrate on regional systems that are tied together with long distance routes and are also connected to other modes of public transit, like airports.

I enjoy traveling on both the airlines and am going to have my first experience on something other than a commuter train in a few weeks. However I noticed that hear in the northeast train travel is very expensive. When I booked my trip from STM to CVS with a stop at NYP in the fair breakdown ticket from STM to NYP ($45) was almost as much as the ticket between NYP and CVS ($61). All together it come to $106 without the business class upgrade from STM to NYP ($12), which I got the upgrede b/c I was paying with credit card points and all tickets under $150 are the same amount of points. For the part of the trip I will be traveling by air by cost me $148 from RIC to KATL then KATL to KHPN. I want to mention hear that I got the Amtrak fair at this price during the winter sail so the fair I stated was 20% off the slandered fair.

When we looked into traveling by Amtrak on a family trip for four people it would cost over $300 each way totaling over $600. We ended up driving.

As for long distance travel, it would be fun to take a train cross country but it would cost big $$$. Some day when I am out of school and have the money I plan on doing this with the train at least one way.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Darien, first thank you for using the ICAO codes when referring to airports. Since so many of the Amtrak station codes are the same as airports' three letter IATA codes, confusion at times arises.

I hope you enjoy your "maiden voyage" on Amtrak. Even if I am not an "avid advocate" of the Long-Distance trains such as The Crescent, my long standing consensus of Amtrak journeys, LD and Corridor, is "more positives than negatives".

Finally, I am surprised to learn that you obtained an apparent bargain 'rate' for a KATL-KHPN flight; as one who uses White Plains on my journeys with final destination of Riverside, the only comment I have regarding flying in there is "farechasers need not apply". But oh, is KHPN ever so convenient for us both; also in my case, a great relief is not having to X any bridges (well UNO, George or Whitestone) in a strange (rented) auto.

Whitestone bridge=Hell I have to drive it 3 days a week to my internship.

Ah, one of my favorite subjects. Until about two and a half years ago, when I quit consulting and went to work for your Federal government (and mine), I was a frequent air traveler. Now, either I'm very lucky, or all those horror stories about air travel don't happen very often, or to very many people. In 20 years of flying perhaps monthly (and overseas as well as within North America), I was:

1) Severely delayed (three hours or more) less than a half dozen times
2) NEVER involuntarily bumped from a flight (once I gave up my seat voluntarily in return for a "free" ticket)
3) Only once had to stay overnight as a result of flight delays (and that was at my option -- the flight finally did take off eight hours late).
4) Had my luggage lost/misdirected five times (and in four, it showed up within a small number of hours)

So really, folks, it's not that bad in comparison to Amtrak, where, traveling much less often than by air, I've had to deal with:

1) Delays of eight hours or more on several occasions
2) Filthy or non-functional restrooms
3) Diners/lounges that ran out of food and/or drink
4) Nonfunctional air conditioning

In all those 20 years, I managed to travel by train on business exactly six times outside the Northeast Corridor (where I am a frequent train traveler). I have often wished for faster/cheaper/higher quality train travel. Maybe we're about to get it, but we sure haven't had it over the years.

Even the NEC has had its ups and downs. Once during the Warrington years, my regular train from PHL to WAS had five cars, two with no lights and two with no heat (it was February). What, you want heat AND light? Vicious pauper! Shut up and sit down! While on crutches with a foot injury, I have been harassed and bullied by Amtrak staff and police.

And why doesn't Amtrak do E-tickets?

Fares on the NEC have been jacked to such a level that, when it's my own nickel, mostly I drive. Driving takes no longer, when all those "clunky" (good word) intermodal transfers are taken into account.

Amtrak has a long way to go, in my estimation.

x-press wrote:quote="x-press"]The "overall experience" of train travel, INCLUDING the beloved corridor, strikes me as a bit "clunky" compared to air travel. Most airports I've used seem modern and fairly well run, planes USUALLY reliable/ontime (some dreadful exceptions rivaling all but the worst Amtrak delays).

There is nothing "clunky" about traveling Amtrak, especially on the Northeast Corridor, where air travel tends to be far more time consuming and inconvenient than rail travel due to the difficulty in reaching the airport, weather delays, security delays, not to mention the delays on the tarmac. For travel between New York and Washington, it just doesn't make any sense at all to fly, either from a practical or environmental level.

All I can say is that I can walk into Penn Station, check my baggage (with the confidence that it will actually get to my destination, unlike the airlines) and then either wait in the Acela/1st class lounge, where I can read a free newpaper, or I can go for a walk on 5th Avenue. I don't have to worry about getting to the airport, getting bumped from an oversold flight, or being stranded in the airport overnight Even coach service, which I prefer on the corridor anyway, is clean, comfortable and spacious - with decent luggage racks and wide seats.

In addition, I've found Amtrak's service to be superior to that of the legacy carriers. The redcaps and sleeping car attendants are always helpful and attentive, and even the conductors are far more pleasant than the sort of middle-aged, disgruntled flight attendants you find on legacy airlines these days. Food service is also better, and despite the complaints, I've never had anything but an excellent meal and excellent service in even a dinette car. I've even found that the solitary workers in the Cafe cars are about a diligent and efficient as you could expect. These are all union employees, and I'd say that Amtrak's personnel create a very good impression for organized labor, as well as for the future passenger rail.

Obviously, I fly as well as taking the train, and there are destinations where I would prefer to drive, depending on the time of the year. There are also great discount airlines, and I've found the service on discount airline to be far better than the legacy carriers - not only are the fairs less, but the service is better overall and the cabin crews are younger and friendlier. So, I'm not knocking airline travel, except in the absurd New York to Washington market where it makes no sense at all.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

x-press wrote:quote="x-press"]The "overall experience" of train travel, INCLUDING the beloved corridor, strikes me as a bit "clunky" compared to air travel. Most airports I've used seem modern and fairly well run, planes USUALLY reliable/ontime (some dreadful exceptions rivaling all but the worst Amtrak delays).

There is nothing "clunky" about traveling Amtrak, especially on the Northeast Corridor, where air travel tends to be far more time consuming and inconvenient than rail travel due to the difficulty in reaching the airport, weather delays, security delays, not to mention the delays on the tarmac. For travel between New York and Washington, it just doesn't make any sense at all to fly, either from a practical or environmental level.

All I can say is that I can walk into Penn Station, check my baggage (with the confidence that it will actually get to my destination, unlike the airlines) and then either wait in the Acela/1st class lounge, where I can read a free newpaper, or I can go for a walk on 5th Avenue. I don't have to worry about getting to the airport, getting bumped from an oversold flight, or being stranded in the airport overnight Even coach service, which I prefer on the corridor anyway, is clean, comfortable and spacious - with decent luggage racks and wide seats.

In addition, I've found Amtrak's service to be superior to that of the legacy carriers. The redcaps and sleeping car attendants are always helpful and attentive, and even the conductors are far more pleasant than the sort of middle-aged, disgruntled flight attendants you find on legacy airlines these days. Food service is also better, and despite the complaints, I've never had anything but an excellent meal and excellent service in even a dinette car. I've even found that the solitary workers in the Cafe cars are about a diligent and efficient as you could expect. These are all union employees, and I'd say that Amtrak's personnel create a very good impression for organized labor, as well as for the future passenger rail.

Obviously, I fly as well as taking the train, and there are destinations where I would prefer to drive, depending on the time of the year. There are also great discount airlines, and I've found the service on discount airline to be far better than the legacy carriers - not only are the fairs less, but the service is better overall and the cabin crews are younger and friendlier. So, I'm not knocking airline travel, except in the absurd New York to Washington market where it makes no sense at all.

"Legacy carriers" is not the name of an airline. There are roughly a half-dozen individual carriers that one might call legacy and their quality of service can be quite different among them.

Like Ms. Bly, I've had very few of the problems noted with flying. The last time my luggage was lost was probably 20 years ago and it still arrived the next day. Of course Amtrak isn't going to lose your luggage since very few of their trains offer a checked luggage service. Did you check that bag in Penn Station for an Acela trip???

I've experienced poor flight attendants and good Amtrak attendants. I've also experience good flight attendants and poor Amtrak attendants so I don't think you can make blanket statements with this that can stand up.

Lastly, the whole "hassle getting to the airport" thing is different for every traveler. It all depends on where you live or work. For instance, if you don't live in Manhattan, Penn Station isn't very convenient. Fortunately, there's the option of Newark for all NEC trains, too.

Outside of the North East, I can only use Amtrak if I have time. Within the North East Amtrak is by far the most convinent, I park at Metro Park and I'm where I need to be within a few hours.

I will Only fly when going cross country (1500 miles or more) in a rush/ emergency or I have to go overseas. Yes each experience is different for each traveler but when you take into account which is easier to access by public transit ( from your home to your departure location) rail always wins. Air travel will always be faster in normal conditions but it depends on your situation. Lets forget the Northeast corridor and focus on the rest of the country for a moment. Here's my example: Chicago to Toronto : This is a trip I took often, as often as twice a month! SO NO ONE CAN BOTHER TO TELL ME DIFFERENTLY!
: flight VS. Train . To start American airline direct flight time roughy 2 hrs Amtrak International from downtown to Downtown train trip 12 hrs.
Distance traveled roughly: 550 Miles.
I Leave my house in the south suburbs of Chicago ( Orlannd Park). Hop aboard Metra, this train will bring me directly downtown to Union station CUS to board Amtrak. this is the point where we start timing things from........
1) If going to the airport ( north suburbs) I must now go outside to catch a CTA bus to get to the "L" station which is only a few blocks away. 15 min. ( Its not worth paying for a cab, it cost as much as a oneway Amtrak ticket!)
2) get to the "L" station wait for Blue line train to O'hare. 10 min.
3) Blue Line trip from downtown to O'hare airport (ORD) 1 hr.
4) arrive at Ohare and navigate "the maze" to my terminal to pick up my ticket, 20 min. ( have to use O'hare as Midway NEVER use to handle International flights and still in 09 mostly operate US bound flights only)
5) check luggage since I cant bring my duffel bag and backpack on board, 15 min.
6) go through and wait for security, 20 min.
7) get harassed by security, another 20 min.
8) have to now wait 2 hrs until boarding. If U don't show up and are by security the 2+ hrs ahead they wont even let you go to the gate now a days so add, 2 HRS.
9) Board the plane and be jammed like sardines on a 727 or similar aircraft, flight is delayed due to wind sheers so we can now only use certain runways to depart on, stuck in a line waiting to depart, 30 min.
10) finally plane depart,s trip takes the estimated 2 hrs. after we land in Toronto (YYZ) now late by the way we missed or gate window we have to wait on the tarmac for one to open up, 15 min.
11) Finally get a gate and deboard now we have to wait for our luguage 30 min to find out 1 bag is mysteriously lost.
12) leave it behind and go line up for Customs.
13) getting searched up and proceed through Customs, 45 min.
14) leave the airport have to wait to board a TTC /Mississauga transit bus to get me to the nearest TTC train line 15 min. ( no other way into downtown unless you take a cab or the expensive airport express limo bus.)
15) get on the mississauga express bus and go to the Islington train station, 20 min.
16) off the bus and on into the train station to wait for a TTC train 5 min. ( there rush hour trains run pretty quick)
17) train trip from Islington station to downtown Toronto Union station, have to make 1 TTC train transfer, total trip time, 1 hr.
Arrive Union station ( same place Amtrak would have dropped me off) to wait for a GO transit train to the Suburb of Pickering ( my fiance lives 2 mins form the GO station).

So for those of you boys and girls who were keeping score at home my true flight time just became 10 hrs and 15 min. and at a cost that would usually be twice that of Amtrak. ( usual AA flight round trip $210, Amtrak round trip $130 in 2004) now that may be considered one of my extreme situations but I assure you the AIR total trip NEVER took less than 8 1/2 hrs on a good day from the same positions.

So look at a situation in those dimensions and you decide if Air travel is really all that superior to Rail travel . I don't know about you But id rather give Amtrak the extra 2+ hrs and take it at half the cost!


EDIT: I have no idea if its just my computer or what but I posted it once and it comes up twice..Mods please investigate