Amtrak Heartland Flyer Discussion and Possible Extension

ThirdRail7 wrote:Western OPs is not my bag, so I'll ask: Assuming the hosts are agreeable, how hard would it be to send a live train & crew FTW-DAL, discharge the pax and DH the train back to FTW for servicing? The next day, the crew can DH the equipment to DAL and originate the service there. From an operation standpoint, this is basically what is done with the Downeasters, so I don't see why this can not be done with the Flyer.

UP is strongly against it. The one weekend a year the Flyer goes to Dallas, it's on TRE tracks. The TRE will eventually allow the Eagle on its tracks, as I wrote earlier, after track additions have been completed. I suppose the Flyer could do so then too, but Amtrak and the TRE will have to reach an agreement. The TRE line isn't fully double tracked, and the TRE runs commuter trains all day long, not just during the morning and evening rush hours. There is a limit on how many trains can run on it. There really isn't room at Union Station in Dallas to idle the Flyer. There's three platforms at the station. Between the first two platforms are two light rail tracks. Between the last two platforms there are two commuter rail tracks for the TRE. Outside (to the west) of the third platform is one track for Amtrak at the platform and two tracks for freights (mainly UP). The Flyer would arrive in Dallas before either Eagle arrived, so it would definitely be in the way.
Fort Worth ITC has two platforms. Between them are two tracks, one usually used by the TRE and one by Amtrak (usually Eagle). Outside (to the east) the second platform is another track used by Amtrak (usually Flyer). There's also three mainlines (one BNSF and two UP) further to the east. Both Eagles rarely meet at the Fort Worth ITC (although I've seen them there at the same time). The few times they do, one Eagle usually uses the same track the Flyer is on. The platforms at the Fort Worth ITC are very long, and two trains can fit.

The reason Amtrak has two assigned tracks in Fort Worth and just one assigned track in Dallas is based upon where the TRE turns its trains. They need two tracks in Dallas, and need two tracks in Fort Worth at the old T&P station because that's where they turn and idle the trains. That allows Amtrak to turn and idle the Flyer with two assigned tracks at the Fort Worth ITC.

There's really is no reason to extend the train to Dallas. Dallas residents can take the Eagle, or ride the TRE, to Fort Worth to catch the Flyer.

A good place for joint advertising and through ticketing agreements, if they could be made to work.

Neither TRE nor Amtrak advertises much in the DFW media market. Amtrak's Eagle has its own web site, but not the Flyer. Amtrak does incorporate both trains on the same timetable pamphlet. That's about all the media advertising Amtrak does in DFW.
The TRE runs trains all day long in both directions, there really isn't a need for the TRE to join forces with Amtrak for reverse commuting, like the VRE needs to do in Virginia. The reason why the TRE can run trains in both directions all day long is because it owns and dispatches its tracks and freights beg them for train slots.

Ron can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the passenger facilities are smaller at Dallas than at Ft. Worth, and aren't designed to handle the ridership of multiple Amtrak trains. The former main waiting room is, IIRC, some sort of banquet facility. It's on the upper level of the building, and was connected to the tracks via a concourse that was demolished in the '60's (I don't think Dallas had any remaining passenger service on A-Day). The current smaller waiting room is on the lower level in what, again IIRC, was a baggage or express area.

Also, when ATSF ran a Dallas section of the Texas Chief, I believe it split from the main train at Gainesville. Ron, do you know if that route would still be usable? And do you have any sense of how many riders off the HF have Dallas as their destination?

Believe the former ATSF route via Denton has been abandoned,remaining alternate route is on the KCS,Metro Jct to Alliance Jct,
(KCS Alliance sub)Alliance Jct to KCS Jct(KCS Dallas sub)KCS Jct to Dallas Union station,on UP.
Good Luck getting UP to allow it!!

I'm not aware exactly which tracks the Texas Chief used to enter Dallas, I would guess via Garland on tracks now owned by the KCS. Those tracks meet the BNSF tracks used by the Flyer west of Denton near Justin. That junction would be a terrible place to split the fFyer today. The previous station would have been Gainsville. I would assume the two sections of the Texas Chief could had rejoined in Cleburne, but DART's red line uses the old SF row in Oak Cliff today - the Flyer couldn't rejoin in Cleburne today.
Union Station in Dallas used to have 5 platforms with 9 tracks for passenger trains. The platforms were reached by a aerial mezzanine from a waiting room on the second floor. That waiting room is now a ballroom and can be rented for all kinds of parties today. The second floor waiting room wasn't popular with local riders in Dallas, just too many stairs to climb and there weren't escalators until very late. There is a tunnel today under the tracks that connect the hotel to the station, with stairs and elevators available to the two island platforms.
It's not the size of the waiting rooms that determines where Amtrak services their trains, it's the number of tracks available. Fort Worth's ITC has more tracks that Amtrak can use.

ThirdRail7 wrote:

Assuming the hosts are agreeable, how hard would it be to send a live train & crew FTW-DAL, discharge the pax and DH the train back to FTW for servicing? The next day, the crew can DH the equipment to DAL and originate the service there.

This is a bit more of what I had in mind. A train doesn't have to sleep where it last drops passengers.

But the hosts aren't agreeable.

This may be over our heads, but do we KNOW this? Did anyone ask or are we just assuming based upon UP's general disdain for passenger services?

Not that it matters in my mind. Electricron's explanation seems reasonable. Clearly there is local, connecting(same station?) service that would make this redundant and probably not worth what UP would want considering they want to push the service of their tracks.

As long as your fielding Western OPs questions Electricron, lets address the SAS portion. I see that is UP territory. IF they allowed it and TX funded it, is there a market for the Flyer to extend the day to SAS, turning for the next day train?

I would have thought the better extension of the HF would be to Houston .

ThirdRail7 wrote:As long as your fielding Western OPs questions Electricron, lets address the SAS portion. I see that is UP territory. IF they allowed it and TX funded it, is there a market for the Flyer to extend the day to SAS, turning for the next day train?

Assuming it's on the same route as the Eagle, it would require permission from both BNSF (Ft Worth-Temple) and UP (Temple-San Antonio).

David Benton wrote:I would have thought the better extension of the HF would be to Houston .

Looking at a map, there are more major cities between Dallas-Ft. Worth and San Antonio (particularly the capitol of the Republic ) than between DFW and Houston-Galveston. That said, I agree that as long as the Heartland Flyer remains a regional train, it's better off going to Houston and serving that new market. Besides, there's no reason (UP willing) not to take the less-direct path through Waco and Bryan/College Station.

There's a routing mostly via BNSF toward Houston,Tower 55 to South Ney Jct to Waxahachie(UP Midiothian sub)
swap over to BNSF DFW sub to Teague,then the Houston sub to Belt Jct,back on the UP Belt Jct(Houston West Belt sub)
to Tower 26,(Terminal sub) then finally make it to Amtrak's Houston Depot.

The UP wants the Texas Eagle to move from its corridor through Arlington to the TRE corridor through Irving. They're tired of living with the two reverse moves through Tower 55 in Fort Worth by the Eagle. It's going to happen once the TRE completes specified track work. So, yes, that is the UP frame of mind.
As I wrote before, extending the Flyer north of Oklahoma City or south of Fort Worth will require another train set. It's 206 track miles between Fort Worth and Oklahoma City, it takes the Flyer 4 hours and 15 minutes to make it. The same train set is in active use 8 hours and 30 minutes each day, not including the time it's idling at either station. The crews are based in Fort Worth. Extending the train 2 hours or so to Tulsa, will require another crew to man the train, as the single crew couldn't possibly operate the train the additional 4 hours, surely they will reach their work day time limit. If you're going to extend the train to Tulsa or Wichita, and set up another crew base, you might as well extend the Flyer all the way to Kansas City.
I believe San Antonio is another crew base, so extending the Flyer to San Antonio is possible from the labor point of view. But the Flyer will still need another train set, and as I wrote before there aren't any available in Amtrak's equipment roster today. Besides, an extension to San Antonio would duplicate the Eagle with afternoon service from Fort Worth to San Antonio, and with morning service from San Antonio to Fort Worth. So it wouldn't be in Texas interest to do so.
As for extending the Flyer south to Houston, there wouldn't be any duplication of service, but it would still require an additional train set and an additional Amtrak crew base. Amtrak used to split the Eagle in Dallas and send half the train towards Houston. Amtrak found a reason to kill it long before the PRIIA legislation was enacted. Obviously, slow trains loose too much money - even for Amtrak - on this route. The State hopes and is encouraging private enterprise will build and operate HSR trains on this corridor. Texas will wait a long time before committing funds to this route.
The State hopes to reach a deal with the UP to buy the Round Rock to San Antonio UP tracks. It would be part of a deal where Texas buys the track, and the UP uses those funds to build a new freight corridor between Taylor and Sequin. If that ever happens, expect Texas subsidizing a train from San Antonio to Fort Worth. But it wouldn't be an extension of the Flyer, Texas would want to run the train from Fort Worth to San Antonio in the morning, and from San Antonio to Fort Worth in the afternoon (opposite the Eagle).

Can anyone advise what happens with the Heartland Flyer train set in between arriving at Fort Worth and returning to Oklahoma? Does it remain in the station at Fort Worth or does it carry on to some servicing facility, and if so, where?

I hope to be able to view it at Fort Worth in between the times the Texas Eagles pass Fort Worth (13:25 - 14:20), but it arrives at 12:23.