Amtrak Heartland Flyer Discussion and Possible Extension

If this is your test of concept, the grade is going to be fail.

Or what are you testing? Whether an empty train can get from Wichita to Arkansas City in an hour?

The test is can they replace the existing Thruway bus services on roughly the same schedule with a train and provide the same frequency and schedule of services to more people than they would on the bus.

BNSF does not allow ETT to be released to the interwebs until 10 years after publication.

I was able to find a 2011 ETT. To me, the Texas Division looks like it’s maintained to standard for the freight it runs. If Amtrak wants to run the Flyer to Newton, they’ll need a really big checkbook to get to 79MPH.

The questions will be:
- Who is the Governor of Kansas, and does he want passenger rail?
- Who is the majority party in each of the houses of Congress, and are they willing to fund passenger rail in two very low siz delegation states?

Then again where does the equipment come from? A thru service CHI - FTW requires including a spare 5 cars + another 5 coaches. Where do you get them? The only way IMO is to substitute new LD single levels on the Capitol and CNO. That is a total of 6 train sets. If this past Thanksgiving is any indication just the present LD service need many more cars. Even regular non peak travel days are selling out the equipment short trains.

Why not just convert the Heartland to single level equipment? It's a low density Corridor with essentially captive equipment. Shift a couple of Amfleets or Horizons and you're done...



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eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:04 pm Why not just convert the Heartland to single level equipment? It's a low density Corridor with essentially captive equipment. Shift a couple of Amfleets or Horizons and you're done...

Sounds reasonable until you realize all the Flyer's rolling stock is deadheaded in Fort Worth on the Eagle from Chicago. Every piece of maintenance stock in Fort Worth laydown yard are for Superliners, not Amfleets or Horizons. There's is no warehouse to store them in in Fort Worth.
The Flyer in the best of times uses three Superliner coaches, one of which has a snack bar on the bottom level instead of wheelchair seats and/or baggage. All the platforms the Flyer uses are very low, and wheelchair passengers can board using a manually placed ramp. Switch to Amtrak's single level fleet would require at least installing mini-high platforms at every station. Who should pay for that? Texas and Oklahoma would not wish to. Not an impossible technical task, more likely an impossible political task. Cities along the route have spent millions updating their train stations for low platforms, it is a little late to now ask them to spend more millions to accommodate a different train model.

If the equipment is being routed to/from Chicago, does it really matter if it's single or dual level?..... It's deadheading.

The Heartland isn't a high speed, high frequency, or high traffic service. An extra minute of dwell to deal with traps or slower boarding won't be impactful. This is how things are "out there" and have always been.

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 5:43 pm If the equipment is being routed to/from Chicago, does it really matter if it's single or dual level?..... It's deadheading.

The Heartland isn't a high speed, high frequency, or high traffic service. An extra minute of dwell to deal with traps or slower boarding won't be impactful. This is how things are "out there" and have always been.

I'm not worried about slow boarding as much as I am worried about wheelchair access!
Presently, using Superliners, a manually moved ramp is used to bridge the wheelchair passengers from the very low platforms to the lower level of the train .I am not sure Amfleet 1s have traps, Amfleet 2 that I am sure do have traps will still be in service on sleeper trains east of the Mississippi River.. While Horizons do have traps, I believe they do not have lifts that I am aware of.
So, to move single level Amtrak rolling stock to this line, Amtrak would either have to install mini-high platforms or electro-mechanical lifts at every train station along this route. Both Texas and Oklahoma subsidize this train and both have a say on what rolling stock Amtrak uses. I refuse to believe three or four Superliner coach cars are on short supply, unlike diners and sightseer lounges.

I have a simple idea that will make handicap access easier.

Re equip the train with single level cars. Include a V-II baggage car. They’re plentiful, Amtrak is using them for wheel counts.

Equip the baggage car with an INTERNAL lift, with edged sides. Assign the parlor attendant to operate it.

Place the baggage car next to the parlor-lounge. Automatically assign the disabled person a parlor seat.

Problem, solved.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:46 am I have a simple idea that will make handicap access easier.

Re equip the train with single level cars. Include a V-II baggage car. They’re plentiful, Amtrak is using them for wheel counts.

Equip the baggage car with an INTERNAL lift, with edged sides. Assign the parlor attendant to operate it.

Place the baggage car next to the parlor-lounge. Automatically assign the disabled person a parlor seat.

Problem, solved.

Baggage cars in Amtrak's fleet are operated by the conductor, not the cafe attendant. I wonder if the "union" as any say? Somehow I think they do. Why should Amtrak have special rules for this one out of 100+ daily trains?
Whereas Amtrak has many baggage cars, would you believe me if I state Amtrak has more Superliner coach cars?
From http://www.on-track-on-line.com/amtk-roster-cars.shtml
Viewliner 2 baggage cars = 65
Superliner 1 coach cars (111) + Superliner 2 coach cars (31) = 142
That was as of Octpber 1, 2023. And that did not include any Surfliner or California Amtrak Superliners.

When Amtrak first started running this train they were using ex Budd Santa Fe Hi-Liners. There's a string of these very Hi-Liners in a private maintenance yard in Dallas, less than 2 miles from Union Station. Given a choice of Superliners, Hi-Liners, and Horizons, Texas and Oklahoma would choose any single level train last.

Seriously, Amtrak solved this problem 20 years ago:



The battery operated portable wheelchair lifts are around $5000 per copy. Crank-o-matics using cables and a boat winch are less than that. Perhaps another $2000 to have a shed to lock it up and protect it from the weather if there's not suitable indoor storage at the station.

I don't think you're building a mini-high for that little, but if you can, great.

Sometimes I think bi-level equipment advocates throw up meaningless obstacles just to throw up obstacles... this just isn't a hill worth dying on, Ron.

I'll admit that the mini-high is the best option for commuter service because they're more likely to see use, but in a low volume Amtrak flyover country stop, it's a waste of time and resources.

Fortunately, those states (TX and OK) operate with balanced budgets and find a way to make things work within the means they have.

There’s one of those lifts in an outdoor cage at the CarlinvilleI, IL station. I didn’t give it much thought but I’m going to take a closer look if work sends me there again.

For those of us who are able-bodied, first count our blessings.

But then, let us not lose sight that other than airlines, which are not directly tax supported, any other public (as distinct from for-hire) transportation operator is.

I's sure there are "wisecrackers", who hopefully "keep it under their breath" when they observe such as in Mr. Olesen's photo, do not lose sight that there is only ONE disability, blindness, that gives rise to additional Federal Income Tax benefits, which used to be an Exemption until TCJA17 did away with such and replaced with an Additional Standard Deduction - and that only if a taxpayer benefits by not having Itemized Deductions.

It’s time to resurrect this thread from the dead line.

It seems the Kansas Executive Branch (Governor and State DOT) are going to resurrect the attempt to extend the Heartland Flyer to meet 3 and 4 at Newton every night.

There’s going to be a meeting about it tomorrow, including a zoom pitch. Want to watch? Read the article from KSAL, Salina, KS for details.

I will continue to ask the question: With what money?

It feels like a natural extension if OK is also willing to pony up a few bucks to get a faster ride to Chicago from Oklahoma City.