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Amtrak Great Dome Schedule Sightings Status

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by John_Perkowski
 
As a fan and a rider, I agree, domes are/were wonderful cars!

As a fleet maintenance manager, the mix/match of cars means $ to spend in parts inventory. What does Amtrak lack? DOLLARS.

Bottom line up front: 38 full length domes were all that was ever built. 14 of those cars, 3 different builders, made it to Amtrak in initial procurement. Another 3 eventually (1990) made it to Amtrak. No matter how you slice it, that's a minority.

Let's look at the full-dome fleet since its inception. 38 cars were built or rebuilt as full domes:

6 Empire Builder, GN-5, CB&Q-1 ...
14 El Capitan, Chicagoan/Kansas Cityan, SF Chief, ATSF 14
Folks 20 cars is Budd's contribution, and a majority of all full domes built.

10 Olympian Hiawatha, Twin Cities Hiawatha, MILW 10. This is P-S contrubition to the pool. P-S actually built 11 cars, but one was destroyed in testing, 10 were actually delivered.

7 Southern Pacific SJ Daylight, Overland Limited, Shasta Daylight, and 3600 the test car. All were rebuilds of earlier flat-tops. SPs contribution was 7.

OF THOSE 38 cars:

13 ATSF cars sold to Auto-Train because Amtrak could not meet Santa Fe's price sticker! 1 ATSF car retained to this day for company service. 24 max available to Amtrak

1 GN-CBQ car retained for company service. 23 max available to Amtrak.

1 MILW car, not yet "delivered," destroyed 1950.6 MILW cars sold to CN in 1964. 16 max available to Amtrak.

2 SP cars were retired or rejected by Amtrak (3600, 3606). 14 max available to Amtrak.

Soooo.... the fleet acquired by Amtrak was 5 GN/CBQ Budds, 4 MILW super domes and 5 SP homebuilts. Folks, they got all available.

Along the way, it appears Amtrak picked up 3 of the CN ex MILW cars for the 1990 edition of Auto-Train. None of the ex-ATSF cars ever entered Amtrak service.

Of the 17 cars which made it to Amtrak, 2 were wrecked and written off, and 2 were sold off before 1985.

Thanks to Mr Pismobum Ainsworth and his excellent dome site for all this information, which is just a precis of what he has:
http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/Fulldomes/

So my question to all you is:

How do you economically justifiy maintaining a fleet with different frames, different trucks, and different materials for longer than Amtrak did? Remember, they got 5 of the Budd-builts! Remember also the final dispersal of this fleet was in the Warrington era!

In retrospect, I would like to see the economic analysis which brought the 4 MILW cars and 5 SP cars to Amtrak, compared to the rejection of the 13 ATSF cars.

One other note: Amtrak lost out also on the UP fleet of 20 short domes, 15 made in one production lot and the other 5 made to the same specs!

Domes

  by NellieBly
 
In retrospect, the late 1970s were really the "golden years" for Amtrak. Domes were everywhere, even running to Newport News and Norfolk, and (briefly) from Croton Harmon to Buffalo (an ex-B&O coach dome).

Domes aren't as tall as people think. A standard Budd or P-S short dome is 16 feet 6 inches above top of rail, same as a "Plate C" box car, and can go pretty much anywhere on the rail network except New York Penn or Boston South Station (Conrail did run a test for Amtrak, and had something like one inch of spare clearance at Back Bay). The MILW and B&O/C&O domes are shorter than that. So Amtrak could have used domes almost anywhere -- and did -- until the advent of the Superliners.

With Superliners, you'd need a transition car to get to the dome, and it would need to run at the head end of the consist to have any forward view. So the Amtrak domes began to disappear.

It's a real shame. Domes were the most distinctive equipment of the postwar era, something almost no other railroads in the world could or did run, and Amtrak walked away from them. Well, I can walk away from Amtrak, too.

  by wigwagfan
 
Unlike Amtrak's fleet of Sightseer Lounge cars that are all of a standardized design, the dome car fleet came in a variety of configurations - dome-lounge, dome-coach, dome-sleeper, even UP's dome-diner.

Even if Amtrak had 17 domes - on what routes would they be assigned to? 17 cars would only accomodate three routes - so if we put them on the Empire Builder, Coast Starlight and California Zephyr, that'd be it - and assuming that all 17 cars were of the same type.

If those cars were anything but a coach or sleeper accomodations on the main level, they would be non-revenue cars.

There's a reason Amtrak retired the "heritage fleet", whether it's an agreeable reason or not - they were too much to maintain. Yeah, it can be done - VIA, many NRHS societies and private railcar owners do it. There are also people that own Model Ts, DC-3s and 4-8-4s, but it doesn't mean it's wise from a business or government perspective.

Oh, and the dome cars aren't, and couldn't ever be made, ADA compliant.

  by NJTRailfan
 
Even if Amtrak did keep the domes I don't think ADA could eliminate them from service.

I do think that Amtrak should've kept certain ones like the dome diner and dome lounges. I'm sure amtrak could've used the old plans from say the Pleasure Dome and UP's dome diner and used them on the dome coaches to convert/retrofit them to bars/lounges and diners. This wouldn't have been hard at all and would've attracted more people. I'm thinking if Warrington hadn't been around the domes would've stuck around.

It can be done esp since these aren't as painful as an observation car would be since you'd have to turn those around or go on a wye right?
Last edited by NJTRailfan on Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
The only Dome Diner operated by Amtrak was that on the Auto Train - 1991-95. The cars were three ex-MILW Super Domes Amtrak acquired from a flopped luxocar Oak-LA operation affiliated with Princess Cruises.

Their renovation was top notch by the luxocar operator and window panes inlaid with Gold were installed (SAR Blue-train also has this feature). All Amtrak had to do was paint their exteriors.

Addition of these cars were the first time separate Dining facilities and menus were offered for Coach and Sleeper passengers. Prior to these cars, Dining service was quite egalitarian - same for both classes.

Incidentally, the private AT did not have any Dining class distinction as well.

http://trainweb.org/web_lurker/MILWf/

Domes

  by jp1822
 
THe problem is that for us on the East Coast - and even some Midwest routes that used to have domes - we lack the Sightseer Lounge car that most Western long distance trains have, and we lack the nice California cars, Talgos etc. that have emerged over the years. So for the "easterners" and "midwesteners" the Amfleet or Horizon lounge/cafe just doesn't fit the bill for where a dome used to operate. The Adirondack, Cardinal, and Vermonter, would especially benefit form a dome where clearance issues would allow (likely where the switching of engines occur). Would love to see the Great Dome come East to operate on the Adirondack route north of Albany for some special fall foliage trips. Instead, we enjoy the fall foliage trips in the luxury of a low density Amfleet I with the small slit windows.

VIA Rail Canada decided to maintain their domes from the heyday of the streamliner dome era - and they are a real welcoming point for passengers aboard. Even on the Chaleur operating out to Gaspe in the Maritimes.

Amtrak could easily get a premium for thoe wanting to ride in a dome car - similiar to how VIA prices its Skeena during peak season. As long as the service is equal to or better than VIA's Skeena service that is.

It would be interesting if Amtrak could ever get the funding to secure a diner/lounge for its eastern long distance train service that have wrap around glass windows etc. (similiar to VIA's Panorama cars on its Skeena train during peak season), that are not greenhouses of course. Such cars do exist, but they require money to buy. The uniqueness of such a car I think would draw passengers to it, and perhaps also draw revenue from those who want to sit and eat among wrap around windows as the scenery goes by. Course these are more categorized as single level domes I suppose, but they would be able to clear the Hudson River tunnels and other clearance issues in the Northeast.

I was really hoping the Vermonter DMU's would have better wrap around windows - to enjoy the scenery more, and still be able to deal with an overhead luggage rack - but I heard such a design was not feasible. I recall seeing a test train on the NEC that had side windows then overhead windows, similiar, but not exactly like the Superliner Sightseer cars. In between the two windows, so to speak could be perhaps your luggage rack.

It's too bad the domes are gone. But nothing we can do about it now. If Amtrak would have retained domes perhaps from one or two train carriers, like VIA did largely with the ex-CP domes, then it may have been able to standardize a fleet of domes - limitedly at least.

Re: Domes

  by wigwagfan
 
jp1822 wrote:THe problem is that for us on the East Coast...we lack the nice California cars, Talgos
What do the California Cars and Talgos have to do with dome cars?

Neither car type has a "lounge car" that is comparable to a Sightseer or a Vista-Dome - the Talgo's Bistro Car is nothing more than a service counter, a kitchen/pantry area, a couple of bar-type seats, and two booths. There is an adjoining table car. About the only thing the Talgos have over the Amfleet cars is larger windows.

The California Cars likewise don't have a "lounge" a la the Sightseer or vista-dome. They do have two types of cafe cars - one where the cafe area is upstairs and another where the cafe area is downstairs (and the upstairs area is more coach seating - like the old Superliner Snack-Coaches.)

-----

IMHO, if Amtrak were to actually have an east-coast Lounge car design, I think it would be akin to this design from Colorado Railcar and in use in Alaska.

  by pennsy
 
Domes are certainly not gone. Quite a few domes are privately owned. Union Pacific also owns several domes, including the City of San Francisco, a dome tail car.

Most of these domes do not run off of HEP power, but have systems whereby they are powered by belts running off their trucks producing power for the A/C. The A/C runs off the batteries when the car is not moving, fairly common practice for the days when they ran the rails in revenue service. The Silver Lariat, ex-CZ Vistadome, runs this way and also has dining capability in its dome, with a kitchen below it. Now that is luxury traveling.

Re: Domes

  by NS VIA FAN
 
wigwagfan wrote: IMHO, if Amtrak were to actually have an east-coast Lounge car design, I think it would be akin to this design from Colorado Railcar and in use in Alaska.
VIA uses identical cars on the Skeena and last winter, on the Jasper Ski Train.

The cars lack forward viewing but would be perfact for the Adirondack, Pennsylvanian and Cardinal which pass through some mountain areas.

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
pennsy wrote:Domes are certainly not gone. Quite a few domes are privately owned. Union Pacific also owns several domes, including the City of San Francisco, a dome tail car.
First, Mr. Pennsy, please excuse the parse of your material; however in this instance it appears the most expedient way to address your points.

Yes the Union Pacific does own a reasonably sized fleet of Dome Cars that they originally acquired. Some they had to 'buy back' from other parties such as the Auto Train Corp Estate.

The Dome-Obs (vice "tail car") you note and now named the "City of San Francisco' (it was simply 90XX when in UP revenue service) originally started life during 1955 as an Obs. However, during 1960, when even the Western roads started to take a "second look" at their premier passenger operations and the City of San Francisco was combined Chi-Ogden with the City of LA, economics "trumped" aesthetics and the cars were fitted with diaphragms and placed in consist next to the Diner. In addition to providing better access to the high profit stuff (booze), it enabled withdrawal of a mid train Sleeper Lounge. The cars assigned for such were known as Redwood Lounges for their distinct interior design (I never saw one).
pennsy wrote:Most of these domes do not run off of HEP power, but have systems whereby they are powered by belts running off their trucks producing power for the A/C. The A/C runs off the batteries when the car is not moving, fairly common practice for the days when they ran the rails in revenue service.
Interesting to learn that the traditional "Spicer Drive" system apparently still lives on, while I should best defer to knowledge from those here actively involved in the "PV" community (BTW, PV is the official AAR mechanical designator for a Private or Business car; surprised to learn that is is not some kind of railfanese?), I thought that Amtrak specifications prohibited such and required HEP. However, we should note that many Domes (in fact all save Budd and PSCM "shorts') were delivered to railroads with internal power generating systems. This even included all ATSF Hi-Level cars.

  by John_Perkowski
 
As an OT aside, UP has converted a couple of baggage/RPO cars to power cars. I think they are running HEP and stand-alone options now.

On the topic at hand: If Amtrak ever does a replacement order for Amfleet, a dome lounge on the order of either Deutsche Bahn, Santa Fe or C&O/B&O's cars might make sense. Relatively low dome, and you don't send it to Boston/New York.

From Mr Ainsworth's site:
TEE(German) 23" dome 14'8" rail to roof
PS(B&O) 21" dome 15'3" rail to roof
PS(ATSF/MP/GM) 15'6" rail to roof

Here's some info on the ex-DB domes:
http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/TEE/

Re: Domes

  by jp1822
 
wigwagfan wrote:
jp1822 wrote:THe problem is that for us on the East Coast...we lack the nice California cars, Talgos
What do the California Cars and Talgos have to do with dome cars?

Neither car type has a "lounge car" that is comparable to a Sightseer or a Vista-Dome - the Talgo's Bistro Car is nothing more than a service counter, a kitchen/pantry area, a couple of bar-type seats, and two booths. There is an adjoining table car. About the only thing the Talgos have over the Amfleet cars is larger windows.

The California Cars likewise don't have a "lounge" a la the Sightseer or vista-dome. They do have two types of cafe cars - one where the cafe area is upstairs and another where the cafe area is downstairs (and the upstairs area is more coach seating - like the old Superliner Snack-Coaches.)

-----

IMHO, if Amtrak were to actually have an east-coast Lounge car design, I think it would be akin to this design from Colorado Railcar and in use in Alaska.
The California Cars are bi-level offering a better viewing vantage point than an Amfleet with also larger windows than an Amtube, from my experience, so that's why I bucketed that in there. You are correct - neither are dome level quality cars in the purist sense. These coaches are merely a "lounge" to themselves compared to Amfleet I cars.

Talgos, in general you get the larger window space and a little more room to move around in than compared to an Amfleet cafe/lounge.

Larger window space, higher level viewing - that was my point for these cars offering a better vantage point to enjoy the scenery than from an Amtube.

And the single level "Panorama Car" offered on VIA's Skeena train would make for a perfect lounge car or even coach car with its single level but wrap around windows. This is exactly the type of car I was referring to for eastern long distance train services if money ever became available on a wish list.

  by John_Perkowski
 
We've cracked the code of great views several times before. FWIW, when Amtrak does replace Amfleet, it needs taller windows, both from a safety and a view perspective.

I've ridden various hi-levels, domes, flat tops, and lower decks of high-levels. Good windowage is the key to good scenery, not necessarily height above the rail.

The advantage a true dome offers is 360 visibility. Now, think about MILW's "Skytop Observations" or the Seaboards lounge cars (Beach series?) which had huge viewing windows AND windows in the roof. Not 360, but pretty darn good. For that matter, SP had P-S build a whole series of extra-large windowed coaches for the various Daylights.

It's sort of like streamlining: There's a precedent (Adams Windsplitter of 1900) in railcar construction if you dig back a few years.

  by CREngineer
 
Amtrak's Last Dome will be assigned to the ADIRONDACK within the week for 4-5 weeks making 3 round trips per week as info......I just answered a post regarding this in the New York State Railfan Forum.

  by SimplySam
 
CREngineer wrote:Amtrak's Last Dome will be assigned to the ADIRONDACK within the week for 4-5 weeks making 3 round trips per week as info......I just answered a post regarding this in the New York State Railfan Forum.
An excellent and rare chance to ride in a dome on one of the most scenic routes in the East.... since the service won't be daily I will hold off making a reservation until days of operation are firmed up but then..... All Aboard!!!
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