Amtrak Great Dome Schedule Sightings Status

John_Perkowski wrote:I hate to say it, but it seems to me this is wishful thinking.

First, Amtrak doesn't even have $$$$$ to build new cars. Second, there are lots of cars needed before Amtrak builds lounges (Sleepers come to mind).

Third, until we get a more-pro "fun" (for wont of a better word) Congress and Administration, I can't see any space being built that doesn't try to capture some of its costs back.

Yes, I WANT the City of Saint Louis to return in all her glory. Those who were around before I began my term on the moderator team knew my sig: The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is my standard for passenger rail travel whereever I go. It still is, but I cannot see a DC corporation run "as if for profit" being allowed "luxury" space.

Well, part of the issue I think is that the penny-pinchers 'forget' sometimes that the fun part CAN be important to the bottom line.

I mean I think one could realistically say that the hard plastic seats they have on commuter trains would have a lower maintenance costs than the current fabric seats the cars have. But no one in their right mind would suggest changing over to them since we all know that would kill ridership.

I think some upgrades, properly done CAN be cost-effective in the sense that the over-all quality of the ride would be better.

As for money for new cars, I think the reality is, there is going to have to be a capital plan in the next 5 years or so and Amtrak has to start thinking about where to spend their money. The Amfleet I's are soldiering on, but are clearly showing their age.

And with initiatives like Illinois and a few other states finally talking about expanding service, equipment is going to start getting scare.

I think a reasonable order of about 150 cars at a minimum is going to have to happen in the next couple of years. (and doing it just plain, I'd do 25-50 sleepers, 75 coach, 25 dining cars.)

But if I'm going that route, I'd start looking at perhaps 15 or so "special" cars, like domes or boat-tails for a few of the premier trains like the Adirondak.

Anyway, it won't happen unless folks make noise and get 218+51+1 talking.

MTU, your idea isn't bad, but here's where it goes bad - the moment Amtrak gets their hands on it. Ever take a Amtrak train with a on-board movie? I'd rather poke my eyes out for fun. The TV is 13", washed out by sunlight, and super super load or just barely loud enough that you can only make out every fourth word. When I first started riding #3, I tried watching a movie out of Chicago in the lounge and absolutely hated life for 90 minutes. I'd rather be required to take a 3-hour law school exam while sitting in the cab of a F40 screamer than watch an Amtrak movie. Where this ties into your viewliner "true view" idea as I call it? The cameras and TV's will be destroyed and malfunctioning within six months, and nobody will pay to fix them. The picture will be just blurry enough to piss you off, and the power to the camera will cut in and out on 1 minute intervals - enough to get you intersted but not enough to be worth watching. I'm pretty good at zoning out - I've slept on the deck of a C&O ferry in fog (must blow an air horn <2 minute intervals, and it makes a K5LA look wussy) - but Amtrak + TV is ROUGH! The best way to enjoy a viewliner is with a book, iPod, or digital camera. Or just watch the scenery with your eyes!

IMHO, my biggest complaint about the Cascades trains is that I ride the train for the scenery, not a movie. Same with the Sightseer Lounge car, although at least the movies are only shown in the evening/night when there isn't much scenery to be seen.

I like the dome car idea, but where is the money - and what about ADA access to the dome? I think a compromise version would be the "single-level" dome (I think Seaboard had them? Colorado Railcar makes them as well) that is a true lounge car, mated next to a cafe car with table seating and food service.

Tadman wrote:MTU, your idea isn't bad, but here's where it goes bad - the moment Amtrak gets their hands on it.

It's true, heh. However, I figured that such technology is about 15 years past the cutting edge, so it's just in range of Amtrak

Besides, I'm not thinking the 13" TVs. This plan would use a projector tucked safely away from the reach of most people, and an anti-glare screen (which, admittedly, would probably get written on.) For that matter, the projector wouldn't even need to be accessible to the on-board train crew necessarily, just a couple of people in the car-cleaning crew that are trained to repair the things.

By the way, call me Andy.

When it comes to an idea like this the Seaboard Line or whoever had the flat dome cars that could go to NYP would have already done this even in their final years compared to Amtrak during their best year.

With the Seaboard I think it was a modified coach or loungecar that had glass paneling but small enough to fit through the tunnels to/from NYP and under the overhead electric lines. so good amtrak should've kept the cars but then look what happened.

wigwagfan wrote:IMHO, my biggest complaint about the Cascades trains is that I ride the train for the scenery, not a movie. Same with the Sightseer Lounge car, although at least the movies are only shown in the evening/night when there isn't much scenery to be seen.

I like the dome car idea, but where is the money - and what about ADA access to the dome? I think a compromise version would be the "single-level" dome (I think Seaboard had them? Colorado Railcar makes them as well) that is a true lounge car, mated next to a cafe car with table seating and food service.

Ah Thank You, I kept meaning to bring up ADA access. I think this could be handled, but one would lose some valuable space to a ramp of some sort or to a mini-elevator.

I'm thinking you'd have a "pass through" corridor off to one side (much like the passage around deluxe sleeping commendations on a Viewliner now. with a "pass-up" to the other side. Not sure what the limits ramp angle are permitted so it might be tough to get enough height in a short space, hence the need for an elevator.

Anyone have more knowledge in this area?

Maybe I am heartless but I don't see why a dome would have to be ADA compliant. As long as a handicapped person can get safely on a train and get to a bathroom and food and get a good view out of a window, shouldn't that be enough?

VikingNik wrote:

Maybe I am heartless but I don't see why a dome would have to be ADA compliant. As long as a handicapped person can get safely on a train and get to a bathroom and food and get a good view out of a window, shouldn't that be enough?

Unfortunately for the vast majority of us, in the world of the Politically Correct, it is not.

Amtrak was created as a replacement for the privately-operated passenger services offfered by individual railroads. There were quite a few more players back then, but all of them found their services to be a much greater financial burden after the mass termination of mail contracts in the mid-1960's.

Government agencies, and particularly those on the Federal level, do not operate under the discipline of profit and loss. To a bureaucrat, the most important rules are never to step on the toes of those in power, and to justify a larger staff and appropriation by defining a larger "problem" for the bureaucracy to "solve".

While I don't want this discussion to devolve into political wrangling, I must point out that many, if not most of the social reforms of the past four decades have revolved around the identification and appeasement of various groups identified as disadvantaged, with the bill largely footed by those who don't fit into one of those groups.

Having been born with a relatively minor, but documentable physical handicap (a spinal deformity) I have mixed emotions about this issue; identification of this condition paid for some of my education and has provided some employment opportunities under the Americans with Disabilities Act. But attempts to rectify these equalities often lead to higher costs in the public sector, and there always those points at which noble ambitions run up against simple reality. Too many of those infected with the "Beltway mentality" tend to dismiss those facts.

NJTRailfan wrote:When it comes to an idea like this the Seaboard Line or whoever had the flat dome cars that could go to NYP would have already done this even in their final years compared to Amtrak during their best year.

With the Seaboard I think it was a modified coach or loungecar that had glass paneling but small enough to fit through the tunnels to/from NYP and under the overhead electric lines. so good amtrak should've kept the cars but then look what happened.

Seaboard Air Line "Sun Lounge" cars .... 3 cars (Hollywood Beach. Miami Beach and Palm Beach, later renamed Sun Ray, Sun View and Sun Beam) built by Pullman Standard in 1956 for assignment to the Silver Meteor between New York and Miami ... 5 double bedrooms, buffet and lounge.

The side and roof window glazing in the lounge area of these cars was anticipative of the future Superliner Sightseer lounge cars.

From a practical standpoint should Amtrak have kept all the dome cars including the full length domes? I heard the biggest problems was that the windows in the domes were hard to maintain plus they couldn't fit under electrified lines or barely making it along with the bridges and tunnels in the Northeast plus they were your worst enemy during the summer because the sun would beat down on the dome and there was no ac. Couldn't Amtrak have rebuilt them to have ac?

Do you think Amtrak should've kept them?

NJTRailfan wrote:From a practical standpoint should Amtrak have kept all the dome cars including the full length domes?.....Couldn't Amtrak have rebuilt them to have ac?

Sure Amtrak should have kept their Domes and could still be running them if they were maintained properly. “If there’s a will, there’s a way”

VIA has approx. 14 Skyline Domes and 14 Park Dome Observations still in service. They were all built by Budd in 1954 and are practical identical to some of the cars Amtrak once owned.

AC: All Dome cars would have been build with AC. It’s a matter of how it was maintained. It gets just as hot in Canada in the summer as in the US (maybe not Arizona Desert hot) and VIA doesn’t seam to have a problem maintaining the AC.

Windows: They get dirty and scratched and are replaced as required.

Under Wires: Only place VIA’s domes were under wires was at Montreal Central Station. (Passengers did not have to vacate the dome as was required entering Washington) They run across bridges and through tunnels without any problem.

I'll be the first to acknowledge that Domes were likely the greatest "postwar" innovation of US passenger railroading (Amtrak's, BTW, is introduction of showers for, well Sleeping cars, 'the masses").

Having ridden many a mile in Domes (never rode the San Francisco Chief and the MILW was gone before I really started riding), B/O A/C and unwashed forward windows were "Amtrak innovations'.

But it seemed that the last "stronghold' for Domes on Amtrak was the Auto-Train; again as I have noted here in the past, why any road ever invested a dime in sightseeing equipment for Atlantic coast routes escapes me. If you've seen one Pine Tree, you've seen 'em all.

Finally Mr. NS VIA, lest we forget the catenary into Wash Union Station is 11KV; that through Montreal Gare Centrale and Mont Royal is 3KV.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:...the catenary into Wash Union Station is 11KV; that through Montreal Gare Centrale and Mont Royal is 3KV.

The wire into Gare Central is now 25kv.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: it seemed that the last "stronghold' for Domes on Amtrak was the Auto-Train; again as I have noted here in the past, why any road ever invested a dime in sightseeing equipment for Atlantic coast routes escapes me. If you've seen one Pine Tree, you've seen 'em all.

The original Auto-Train Corporation (AUT) captured the market on domes, acquiring about 53 dome cars from UP, ATSF and WP. 13 of their 53 dome were ATSF full domes.

From my perspective, a nice ride in a dome car can enhance a view of scenery such as kudzu and pine trees. I fondly recall my rides in Southern Railway's dome parlor car Atlanta - New Orleans on the Southern Crescent, as well as the Amtrak domes on the Autotrain between Lorton and Sanford.

I second Mr. Deasy's opinion - I'll take a reasonably-maintained dome anywhere but the subway. Georgia pines in omnimax-vision? Bring it on.