Amtrak Empire Service (New York State)

Trains enroute to or from Albany and points beyond can use tracks five
through nine inclusive (5 - 9). They run through the remains of A Yard on
what was once 4 A.
In the event that an engine that does not have third rail capability needs
to be used on a New York bound train, inbound it would pull completely
through the Empire Tunnel and stop at the east end of old 4-A where an
electric engine would tie on to the train and the diesel would be shut down
for movement into the station. This move was done for a while on trains
48 and 49. The electric motor would handle the train through the East
River line and over to Sunnyside Yard. With train 49, the electric motor
would bring the train with the diesel coupled right behind it but shut down
over from Sunnyside to Penn Station and after spotting the train on the
departure track in the station with the engine as far to the west end as
possible would simply cut away. The diesel would be started up and after
a brake test with the diesel took place, the train would leave with the
diesel at leaving time. This move has not been done in this matter in
quite some time as there is now enough power to insure an engine on
48 and 49 that can operate off the third rail while in the tunnels in New
York.
Noel Weaver

I do not know if I would go out and say that the Turbo Trains were junk
but they were not much better than junk in any event.
A P-32 and five cars will do just as good and probably better with a
schedule than a Turbo Train will.
Incidentally, on my trip to the area, I rode three round trips between
Albany and New York and we were on time or ahead of time on all six
trains. One train made it from New York to Albany in two hours and
fifteen minutes, that's correct 2 hours and 15 minutes. It was a really nice
smooth ride too. Just good clear signals and a good crew (train and engine) who knew what they were doing and were working very well
together.
As for the food service, got along fine without it.
Noel Weaver

I'm glad you got along fine, but I personally consider food service to be one of the things that makes taking the train better than riding a bus, and I'm very disgusted to see it eliminated on the New York - Albany trains.

Also, I'm extremely disgusted to see $60 million worth of refurbished equipment sitting idle, perhaps for good, because neither Amtrak nor the state of New York has the leadership to ensure that those assets be utilized. There needs to be some accountability, and I am outraged that taxpayer dollars can be wasted like that with nobody seeming to care. And yet, after wasting over $60 million on the Turboliner debacle, suddenly it's imperative that food service be eliminated to save a mere $1 million per year!

I've ridden aboard both of the two refurbished Turboliner trainsets that actually saw revenue service briefly, and they were certainly nice trains from a passenger's perspective. I feel that New York and Amtrak both have an obligation to address the mechanical issues that sidelined them and get them back into operation asap. I've lost a lot of respect for David Gunn's administration due to Amtrak's uncooperative and downright hostile attitude toward the Turboliner project. New York may have cancelled the contract with Super Steel for the remaining rebuilds, but the fact remains that three trainsets have already been completed and are going to waste, and reportedly a fourth trainset is nearly complete.

What is the current situation regarding both the Turboliner fiasco and the food service downgrades? Is New York still planning to pursue legal action against Amtrak, and if so, will it happen during my lifetime? Or will the stalemate just go on seemingly forever? I mean, really, years have gone by now with no apparent progress on the Turboliner issue and no resolution in sight. And did New York raise any objection to the killing of food service? As Amtrak and NYDOT bicker, it's ultimately the paying customers who are losing. Maybe this is where privatization and competition would be a good thing in theory, since with the government monopoly on rail transport, there is obviously no incentive to serve the customer. (I understand the economic reasons that prevent true privatization, but you have to admit, as it stands now there's no incentive to strive for excellence and no accountability for waste and incompetence.) If my travels take me to Albany in the future, I will not be using Amtrak anymore - at least not until I can board a refurbished Turboliner and then get a bite to eat in the cafe car like I did during my last Empire Corridor trip in 2003!

Just a guess, but I suspect the whole Turboliner deal has to do with David Gunn's perhaps obsessive insistence on standardization.

Gunn is, of course, correct when he asserts that equipment standardization over the long haul will reduce overall maintenence costs. Even so, if he has faults, they are in the political aspects of his job. Spending $60 million to have trainsets sit in storage while lopping off food service that cost perhaps a million bucks to run looks very bad to the public.

Of course, one can argue, it wasn't Gunn who spent the $60 million, it was the politicians taking care of business in Albany.

And the band played on.

Messrs. HSR and Damon have given us some food for thought regarding the Turbos.

Like it or not, that "cabal of pols up the river' must face the voters, and I would guess most of them will in another 14 months. The more "play" this story of the Turbo's gets in general circulation media (it appears that the Albany Times Union has given it a fair amount to date), the more "enquiring minds' will want to know.

There is no alternative other than the State taking legal action; if they did nothing then it would appear that the boys and girls sitting under the spires (no dome in New York) were not looking out for the interests of the folk that put them there.

Naturally, this overlooks that New York simply let a contract with a vendor of their choice, spent a sum of the people's money fixing up trainsets that, although they still 'looked futuristic,' had exceeded their economic life , then proffered these trains upon Amtrak saying "you will run 'em'. Apparently they were astounded when Amtrak refused to do so.

But I think at times the Gunn administration should be willing to 'bend with the breezes" - something it is becoming evident they are inept at doing. The State has far more resources to cast Amtrak as the villain in this matter than does Amtrak have to cast the State as such.

Lastly, I believe the Food & Beverage issue is separate from that of the Turbos, even though we here at the Forum are casting it as integeral part of a "New York Drop Dead' initiative by Amtrak.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Naturally, this overlooks that New York simply let a contract with a vendor of their choice, spent a sum of the people's money fixing up trainsets that, although they still 'looked futuristic,' had exceeded their economic life , then proffered these trains upon Amtrak saying "you will run 'em'. Apparently they were astounded when Amtrak refused to do so.

I don't know if that's entirely true. Didn't Amtrak sign up for the project before the first Turboliner rebuild ever began? David Gunn obviously was not in charge at the time, but that doesn't mean he can come in and ignore every legal commitment made prior to his administration! Nevermind the fact that Amtrak also agreed to upgrade some track for 125 mph operation, and add a second track between Albany and Schenectady. Even after failing to meet that commitment, Amtrak still was essentially getting free trains from New York. That would of course free Amfleet equipment for use elsewhere, which would have been helpful during the recent Acela crisis!

Sam Damon wrote:Just a guess, but I suspect the whole Turboliner deal has to do with David Gunn's perhaps obsessive insistence on standardization.

There should certainly be an exception for state supported services. Otherwise, David Gunn would have the Cascades Talgos heading off to the scrap heap, along with North Carolina's Piedmont equipment and the Heartland Flyer's oddball hi-level cars!

I believe I mentioned previously that on one of my trips aboard an Amfleet equipped Empire Corridor train on a hot summer day, the air conditioning in our worn out Amfleet coach was not functioning. The train was packed, so moving to another coach was not really an option, but I managed to find some relief in the cafe car. That wasn't the first time I've had malfunctioning a/c on an Amfleet, and yet I don't see Amtrak sidelining the Amfleet coaches. So, I think the a/c problems with the Turboliners (which Super Steel offered to fix under warranty) were more of an excuse on the part of Amtrak than a legitimate reason for mothballing the trains.

• There should certainly be an exception for state supported services. Otherwise, David Gunn would have the Cascades Talgos heading off to the scrap heap, along with North Carolina's Piedmont equipment and the Heartland Flyer's oddball hi-level cars

You make a good point here, Mr. HSR; the sponsoring agency certainly has control over the services being offered - they are paying for it. Can't be sure, but with Amtrak evidently on its 'all reserved" policy, it is a safe assumption that if Amtrak had their way, the California services beyond the San Joaquins would today be all reserved.

New York services fall into a quandry: while undeniably New York has made substantial investments in rail passenger services - Amtrak and communter rail alike - most affecting Amtrak has been for infrastructure. The State's operating subsidy is limited to one train - the Adirondack.

• So, I think the a/c problems with the Turboliners (which Super Steel offered to fix under warranty) were more of an excuse on the part of Amtrak than a legitimate reason for mothballing the trains.

Regarding your second point, a "new' auto (now six months old) of mine had a faulty tire pressure warning system. It was annoying to drive around with a flashing yellow warning light and listen to "barbs" from friends who have their "thing' against Asian automobiles (a one-time lemon VW gave me a "thing' about European autos; let's not address what gave me a "thing' about US autos). Did I get to, even if for some reasn I wanted to, drive it back to the dealer and demand my money back?, of course not! I simply waited for them to order in the parts and have them on the second try fix it.

I've noted in the past that Amtrak has acted rather capriciously in the Turbo fiasco; failing to allow accredited technicians access to the trains to make right what is wrong as well as in the first place their 'civil seizure' of them is indicative of that.

Well, if the lack of food service on a train run of a little more than two
hours or the choice of equipment too for that matter were to keep me from riding a passenger train somewhere given that I had such a choice,
I would consider myself "silly".
Here in Florida, I wish we had a choice of a passenger train up to Orlando
or Tampa, I would not particularly care as to the type of equipment nor
whether or not the train had food service. Avoiding Amtrak just for these
reasons makes no sense, kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your
face.
On my trip north, I rode thirteen (13) different Amtrak trains and NOT ONE
car that I rode in was hot, the AC worked in all of the cars that I not only
rode in but may have passed through as well. Incidentally, that is more
than I can say for some of the very new cars on the LIRR where I found
both M-3's and M-7's with hot cars in the consist.
HSR, you need to think a little bit more positive toward passenger trains,
if because of your dislike of equipment or the lack of food service, you
would use a bus or a crowded highway or deal with airport hassels because of this, I think you have your priorities a little mixed up.
I only used a food service car twice on the thirteen different trains that I
rode, both times in the NEC in the AM for a pastry and soda, good and
worth the price in my opinion, the hot cimminom pastry was very tasty.
You will enjoy your trip a lot more if you don't continuously try to find
something wrong or to complain about.
Noel Weaver

I guess it's the principle as much as anything. Consider it a boycott of Amtrak's Empire Corridor in protest of the Turboliner's premature demise and in protest of the service downgrades. I know it won't make any difference, but at least I can say I've stood by my principles in not accepting whatever Amtrak decides to give us (or not give us, in the case of food service!).

When you exit the tunnel, there are several sidings (one looks like
a wye) turning west off the two-track mainline, under adjacent buildings. History, please? Are any of them used today? And if not, why hasn't AMTRAK lifted the rails?

The wye track, although it looks out of service, is there to turn diesel engines which cannot enter Penn Station. moreover, the setout track near CP-JERVIS was also installed to help with power changes as a place where a diesel could pull out of the way. Any other sidings are there due to the former freight nature of the old West Side line. As you travel the line you can see where all the old overbuilt railyards used to be. The yards were to serve not only the NYC industry, but also the waterfront where goods came in from overseas. There was also a marine terminal around 100th st that included a float connection to west side railyards.

I live along the NY Alb corridor. I think the turbos at least looked new and were clean and presentable inside. That is about all most folks see, unless of course the heat hotwater ac or bathroom has gone off.

Amtrak's heavy handed policy on the turbo and the Alb-Rens station is just the result of politics. NYS is near the bottom for transparency and efficiency in the long list of states. It always has been.

The trains they run now along the river are about right AS LONG as they work and run on time.

Mr. HSR,

I share your concerns regarding how the Gunn Administraction is handling the Turbo matter. They should have these trains running no matter what problems they have, save those that would jeopardize safety.

AmtrakFan wrote:Mr. HSR,

I share your concerns regarding how the Gunn Administraction is handling the Turbo matter. They should have these trains running no matter what problems they have, save those that would jeopardize safety.

No matter that the trains are much more expensive to operate, need more
manpower every time they run and are not really compatible with any
other stuff in Albany. There are also reliability problems and the trains
are old.
The present equipment is doing the job just fine, I rode the line last month
several times with no problems, in comfort and on time. The AC worked
just fine too.
Noel Weaver