ALP-45DP's - Usage and Delivery

Tommy Meehan wrote:

Trains operating with an ALP-45 in the consist and destined to or from Hoboken must operate in diesel mode only between Hoboken and Broad St. Station Newark. They must not depart Broad St. Station until a mode change has been made as follows, unless otherwise instructed by the Dispatcher:

Electric to Diesel: Eastbound: Broad St. Station
Diesel to Electric: Westbound: Broad St. Station

One question I had was, why does Transit prefer these locomotives be operated in electric mode? Based on comments by an LIRR engineer, there it's just the reverse. When he first operated a dual-mode running to Penn Station he ran it primarily in electric. The RFE spoke to him and said he wasn't supposed to switch to electric mode until -- I don't remember, it was probably ten years ago -- but not until a point fairly close to the East River tunnels. That LIRR basically wanted them run in diesel except in the tunnels where they had to be run in electric.

Same thing with Metro-North. The Gennies switch to or from electric at 125th Street normally. They want them running in electric only within GCT or the Park Avenue tunnel. And I'm not implying NJ Transit is doing it the "wrong way," just curious as to why.

Keep in mind that LIRR and Metro-North have third rail, that does not provide nearly as much tractive power as the overhead catenary on NJ Transit and Amtrak.

Andy

MNR locomotives are designed to be primary-diesel, running on third rail only where necessary. LIRR was designed to be primary-electric, but the instructions were changed after the high current draw sparked a fire in Huntington. Now, westbounds transition before Jamaica and eastbounds transition as soon as they are clear of the tunnels.

NJT has no third rail gap issues to contend with. Plus the 45 is more powerful in E mode than it is in D mode.

Believe the AL-45-DP was primary an electric loco 1st,diesel 2nd,not diesel 1st,electric 2nd like the FL-9's,P32dm's, and the DM-30's.
FYI: The DM's are supposed to swap modes between east limits Harold and Woodside in both directions on the Mainline.

Amtrak7 wrote:LIRR was designed to be primary-electric, but the instructions were changed after the high current draw sparked a fire in Huntington. Now, westbounds transition before Jamaica and eastbounds transition as soon as they are clear of the tunnels.

It's a shame they had those issues - I remember at the beginning they'd run electric out to the end of electric territory (which was Mineola on the OB branch I was taking), and boy, was that an impressive ride. Exceptionally quiet loco and surprising amount of punch. The current draw must have been close to the limits of the LIRR's substations...

Patrick Boylan wrote:ThirdRail7 beat me to it. 25Hz, you have not answered my question, how can you tell it in a STILL photo? And so please give us an example of a photo which does show deflection.
As for your comment "Anyways back on topic!", if discussing deflection is deflecting the topic, and I don't think it is off topic, please remember that your post started this deflection. There should be a special place reserved for someone who starts something and then leaves everyone else hanging and asks that we return to our original programming.

I meant the topic of the weekend swap outs...

And as for being able to tell, well that is very hard to explain hence why i didn't bother. But, sine you're asking i will take the time and try...

I have an extremely high visual acuity, like off the charts. I can dissect images differently than most people, in fact how i "see" the world is different from most people. I've stood (for various reasons) trackside for hours on end, staring at the rails, seeing how they move, looking at the wheels and trucks, seeing how their movement relates to the wear and alignment of the rails, for example unevenly worn or newly installed rail will make the truck do different things as it moves over that spot. I've watched countless videos as well. Both of these add together to create a map in my head of what the rails and ties (the ties often move) should look like. I can recall all most every centimeter of rail/track/tie i've ever looked at, from the abandoned wye here in the middle of town, to the odd derailing switch on the east end of track 5 in trenton, to the LIRR grade crossing in bethpage east of the station, plus countless moments of when i've seen train wheels move over certain sections i've seen without any weight on them. I remember things as if they were video clips as well as stills. I can also manipulate objects in my visual mind to deduce what made marks say from a traffic accident or a tree falling (i call it forensic visualization). I can also recall all most every moment of every movie i've ever seen, including on youtube. I see a still photo of a locomotive on a section of track i've seen before, or looks similar enough to another i've seen to tell that the rail is not being deflected any more than a PL42AC would if it rolled over the same spot (this is interesting to me since they supposedly weigh the same!).

I've used these "abilities" too... In the past i've done photo editing, for example removing a power line that crossed in front of a pole mounted clock that obscured large parts of 2 of the hour numerals and one of the hands. When i was done it looked like there never was any power line and no trace of any alterations. This ironically has also enabled me to tell if a photo has been altered or not at a glance most of the time.

You can call me a foamer or any other name or say stuff about me all you want, i've heard it all before. I do actually know what i'm talking about 99% of the time, and most of the time if i am wrong, it is because i got bad info from a source thought of as reliable, or there is a vacuum of information and all i can do is deduce from known facts. I don't make stuff up, nor do i enjoy being incorrect, especially in front of a crowd such as rr.net.

Now you might understand why i preferred "now back on topic".

Fan Railer wrote:

beanbag wrote: Hahahahaha, I was at Millburn, you guys pulled in at about 11:56-12:00, i was looking right at you then, hahah you wouldve seen me if you were looking at the platform.

lol I had decide not to shoot on the way back if the first car behind the locomotive wasn't open and it wasnt, so I didn't. If I was recording, might have seen you. Lol was probably playing my cellphone game. Those Caterpillar diesels are music to my ears, second only to the 710G.

Those CATs do sound nice, even though to me, theyre second to the 645s in the Geeps. Those are music. Ha you and I need to catch up again this summer. Sorry i never saw this post. 4509 really had a good handle on your train.

25Hz wrote:I meant the topic of the weekend swap outs...

And as for being able to tell, well that is very hard to explain hence why i didn't bother. But, sine you're asking i will take the time and try...

I have an extremely high visual acuity, like off the charts. I can dissect images differently than most people, in fact how i "see" the world is different from most people. I've stood (for various reasons) trackside for hours on end, staring at the rails, seeing how they move, looking at the wheels and trucks, seeing how their movement relates to the wear and alignment of the rails, for example unevenly worn or newly installed rail will make the truck do different things as it moves over that spot. I've watched countless videos as well. Both of these add together to create a map in my head of what the rails and ties (the ties often move) should look like. I can recall all most every centimeter of rail/track/tie i've ever looked at, from the abandoned wye here in the middle of town, to the odd derailing switch on the east end of track 5 in trenton, to the LIRR grade crossing in bethpage east of the station, plus countless moments of when i've seen train wheels move over certain sections i've seen without any weight on them. I remember things as if they were video clips as well as stills. I can also manipulate objects in my visual mind to deduce what made marks say from a traffic accident or a tree falling (i call it forensic visualization). I can also recall all most every moment of every movie i've ever seen, including on youtube. I see a still photo of a locomotive on a section of track i've seen before, or looks similar enough to another i've seen to tell that the rail is not being deflected any more than a PL42AC would if it rolled over the same spot (this is interesting to me since they supposedly weigh the same!).

I've used these "abilities" too... In the past i've done photo editing, for example removing a power line that crossed in front of a pole mounted clock that obscured large parts of 2 of the hour numerals and one of the hands. When i was done it looked like there never was any power line and no trace of any alterations. This ironically has also enabled me to tell if a photo has been altered or not at a glance most of the time.

You can call me a foamer or any other name or say stuff about me all you want, i've heard it all before. I do actually know what i'm talking about 99% of the time, and most of the time if i am wrong, it is because i got bad info from a source thought of as reliable, or there is a vacuum of information and all i can do is deduce from known facts. I don't make stuff up, nor do i enjoy being incorrect, especially in front of a crowd such as rr.net.

Now you might understand why i preferred "now back on topic".

Oh my Dog, this is the funniest thing I've seen on this site in a while. I laughed right into a coughing fit. Brilliant.

This is Kaufmanesque, this is. Holy isht.

By the way, I can tell the gender of a gnat at 100 yards. I call it 'remote entomological sexing'.

Not going to even touch 25hz explanation above......, but just say - okay!!!!

The '45s as far as i know and can tell are basically equally capable in electric mode and diesel mode. They had plans initially to basically replace all the Geeps with '45s, so due to that, they would have to be pretty capable diesel locos, and they are. Same in electric mode, sure, they aren't as powerful as a '46 or '46A, but they aren't THAT far off of an original '46 with regard to power and performance.

They aren't perfect, but they are much better than the dual modes on Amtrak, MN and LIRR, which are diesels that can run on 3rd rail when needed. The '45s in theory can run in electric all day, or diesel all day, or both all day. They aren't, or at least as of yet, having issues that would really prevent that, at least that i know of.

Jtgshu wrote:Not going to even touch 25hz explanation above......, but just say - okay!!!!

The '45s as far as i know and can tell are basically equally capable in electric mode and diesel mode. They had plans initially to basically replace all the Geeps with '45s, so due to that, they would have to be pretty capable diesel locos, and they are. Same in electric mode, sure, they aren't as powerful as a '46 or '46A, but they aren't THAT far off of an original '46 with regard to power and performance.

They aren't perfect, but they are much better than the dual modes on Amtrak, MN and LIRR, which are diesels that can run on 3rd rail when needed. The '45s in theory can run in electric all day, or diesel all day, or both all day. They aren't, or at least as of yet, having issues that would really prevent that, at least that i know of.

I would call them the first successful truly dual power locomotive. The design isn't a compromise, it really is 2 units in one. The fact that it had to be single ended is probably the only caveat i can think of. Even the single panto isn't an issue, because in theory it could rescue itself if the panto was damaged.

haamster wrote:Oh my Dog, this is the funniest thing I've seen on this site in a while. I laughed right into a coughing fit. Brilliant.

This is Kaufmanesque, this is. Holy isht.

By the way, I can tell the gender of a gnat at 100 yards. I call it 'remote entomological sexing'.

Glad to be of service, sir.

Jtgshu wrote:The '45s as far as i know and can tell are basically equally capable in electric mode and diesel mode. They had plans initially to basically replace all the Geeps with '45s, so due to that, they would have to be pretty capable diesel locos, and they are. Same in electric mode, sure, they aren't as powerful as a '46 or '46A, but they aren't THAT far off of an original '46 with regard to power and performance.

They aren't perfect, but they are much better than the dual modes on Amtrak, MN and LIRR, which are diesels that can run on 3rd rail when needed. The '45s in theory can run in electric all day, or diesel all day, or both all day. They aren't, or at least as of yet, having issues that would really prevent that, at least that i know of.

Very interesting, yes I can see they're a different breed than the P32AC-DM or the DM30-AC.

I wonder what the costs are in diesel vs. electric? Possibly cheaper to run in electric at least on NJ Transit's own lines. On Amtrak's NEC route maybe more expensive given Amtrak's hefty power charges. That is supposed to be the reason MARC runs so much diesel on the NEC. Amtrak charges too much.

When (if) they start running regularly on the NEC will they switch over to diesel once out of the tunnels? Guess we'll find out.

25Hz wrote:

Patrick Boylan wrote:ThirdRail7 beat me to it. 25Hz, you have not answered my question, how can you tell it in a STILL photo? And so please give us an example of a photo which does show deflection.
As for your comment "Anyways back on topic!", if discussing deflection is deflecting the topic, and I don't think it is off topic, please remember that your post started this deflection. There should be a special place reserved for someone who starts something and then leaves everyone else hanging and asks that we return to our original programming.

I meant the topic of the weekend swap outs...

And as for being able to tell, well that is very hard to explain hence why i didn't bother. But, sine you're asking i will take the time and try...

I have an extremely high visual acuity, like off the charts. I can dissect images differently than most people, in fact how i "see" the world is different from most people. I've stood (for various reasons) trackside for hours on end, staring at the rails, seeing how they move, looking at the wheels and trucks, seeing how their movement relates to the wear and alignment of the rails, for example unevenly worn or newly installed rail will make the truck do different things as it moves over that spot. I've watched countless videos as well. Both of these add together to create a map in my head of what the rails and ties (the ties often move) should look like. I can recall all most every centimeter of rail/track/tie i've ever looked at, from the abandoned wye here in the middle of town, to the odd derailing switch on the east end of track 5 in trenton, to the LIRR grade crossing in bethpage east of the station, plus countless moments of when i've seen train wheels move over certain sections i've seen without any weight on them. I remember things as if they were video clips as well as stills. I can also manipulate objects in my visual mind to deduce what made marks say from a traffic accident or a tree falling (i call it forensic visualization). I can also recall all most every moment of every movie i've ever seen, including on youtube. I see a still photo of a locomotive on a section of track i've seen before, or looks similar enough to another i've seen to tell that the rail is not being deflected any more than a PL42AC would if it rolled over the same spot (this is interesting to me since they supposedly weigh the same!).

I've used these "abilities" too... In the past i've done photo editing, for example removing a power line that crossed in front of a pole mounted clock that obscured large parts of 2 of the hour numerals and one of the hands. When i was done it looked like there never was any power line and no trace of any alterations. This ironically has also enabled me to tell if a photo has been altered or not at a glance most of the time.

You can call me a foamer or any other name or say stuff about me all you want, i've heard it all before. I do actually know what i'm talking about 99% of the time, and most of the time if i am wrong, it is because i got bad info from a source thought of as reliable, or there is a vacuum of information and all i can do is deduce from known facts. I don't make stuff up, nor do i enjoy being incorrect, especially in front of a crowd such as rr.net.

Now you might understand why i preferred "now back on topic".

Forget the boots, get me my hip waders. He's a legend in his own mind.

Jtgshu wrote:Not going to even touch 25hz explanation above......, but just say - okay!!!!

The '45s as far as i know and can tell are basically equally capable in electric mode and diesel mode. They had plans initially to basically replace all the Geeps with '45s, so due to that, they would have to be pretty capable diesel locos, and they are. Same in electric mode, sure, they aren't as powerful as a '46 or '46A, but they aren't THAT far off of an original '46 with regard to power and performance.

They aren't perfect, but they are much better than the dual modes on Amtrak, MN and LIRR, which are diesels that can run on 3rd rail when needed. The '45s in theory can run in electric all day, or diesel all day, or both all day. They aren't, or at least as of yet, having issues that would really prevent that, at least that i know of.

Considering they didn't go with more options to replace the Geeps, what is the plan on those now? Are we looking at a rebuild a few years down, or another order of 45s in the future, or a brand new diesel design, i.e, the EMD F125 or something similar?

NJT would like the 45s to run in electric mode whenever possible for two main reasons. 1- In electric mode the locomotive is not using fuel, which it consumes at a significantly higher rate than older diesel equipment (an even bigger issue given that they have smaller fuel tanks). 2- In electric mode there are no hours being put on the diesel engines which require service on a regular schedule based on their accumulated running hours.

Sirsonic wrote:....it consumes at a significantly higher rate than older diesel equipment (an even bigger issue given that they have smaller fuel tanks)...

Oh boy!

Thanks!

In most years NJ Transit shows a cash flow surplus on their NEC operations so I guess they have some room to pay high electric charges to Amtrak. Would the ALP-45DPs use more power than the MU trains they would replace? I think the answer is yes.

Still all a ways off I guess.