All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

jp1822 wrote:Princeton Junction was a HUGE stop (perhaps more passengers boarding here than in Trenton) when the Clockers were in service! Same for the Keystones, which essentially backed up the Clockers. With NJT at a crawl with its schedules - often - and Amtrak offering more comfortable seating, I could see a resurgance of "monthly pass holders" for Keystone trains at Princeton Junction, just like at Trenton, IF the Keystones once again stopped at Princeton Junction - like they used to.

I wouldn't call a commuter rail average speed of close to 50mph as a crawl (as it is on the PJC expresses), but there were certainly wealthy people in the Princeton area willing to pay a premium in order to ride to New York in less time and with greater comfort amenities. Keep in mind though, most of those passengers who utilized the Clockers at PJC and Trenton were actually NJT monthly passholders utilizing a cross-honoring deal that was a legacy from when NJT service south of New Brunswick was less dense. This cross-honoring met its demise at the same time as the Clockers and the first appearance of PJC super-expresses run by NJT.

M&Eman wrote: I wouldn't call a commuter rail average speed of close to 50mph as a crawl

Go work out the average speeds of various New Haven line trains. They typically range 40 - 50mph on a line with significantly more traffic, curves, and speed restrictions. Not to mention a LOT of stops...

NJT train 3910 makes the run Princeton Junction to New York Penn Station, a distance of 47.4 miles, in 53 minutes, making one intermediate stop at Newark Penn Station. This is an average speed of 53.66 mph.

MNRR train 1419 makes the run from East Norwalk to Grand Central Terminal, a distance of 42 miles, with one intermediate stop at Harlem-125th Street in 58 minutes. This is an average speed of 43.45 mph.

Amtrak Keystone 652 makes the run Princeton Junction to New York Penn Station in 56 minutes, making two intermediate stops at Metropark and Newark Penn Station. This is an average speed of 50.78 mph.

Keep in mind Amtrak's equipment can run a full 25 mph faster on the fastest stretches of the corridor than NJT's equipment. Also keep in mind that soon NJT will have 125 mph capable equipment and will most likely speed up their NEC express schedules accordingly. Regardless of how you look at it, the fastest NJT train beats MNRR's fastest train, and beat's Amtrak's fastest train out of Princeton Junction.

M&Eman wrote:NJT train 3910 makes the run Princeton Junction to New York Penn Station, a distance of 47.4 miles, in 53 minutes, making one intermediate stop at Newark Penn Station. This is an average speed of 53.66 mph.

MNRR train 1419 makes the run from East Norwalk to Grand Central Terminal, a distance of 42 miles, with one intermediate stop at Harlem-125th Street in 58 minutes. This is an average speed of 43.45 mph.

Yes, MN's 10mph slower....with a MAS of 70, 45mph bridges, numerous 60mph curves, the 30mph or so curve through Port Chester, etc.

Also keep in mind that soon NJT will have 125 mph capable equipment and will most likely speed up their NEC express schedules accordingly.

Seriously, with one intermediate stop, near constant 100mph track, and equipment that can run there, NJT's best effort is a scant 10mph faster than one of the most curvy, restricted, busy rail lines in North America? Most of the speed restrictions on the NEC in NJ don't drop you to the MAS of most of the NH line. Elizabeth and around Newark's the exceptions I can think of...

From what I've seen, the bulk of it is a sloppy timetable (Amtrak's famously bad dispatching, Shirley time, NJT management's lack of GAS...), and a lousy choice of equipment (heavyweight cars hauled by intercity service locomotives. This isn't the PRR to DC, why are we buying equipment designed for that?)

Amtrak's dispatching is much better than Metro North as they actually give the premium AX riders a premium ride. Amtrak has to deal with all sorts of late arriving LD trains inbound from hundreds of miles away. If you show up on Metro North 5 minutes down look to get the royal screwjob as their overworked dispatchers just stick you behind a local on the outer tracks, but Amtrak makes sure to stick the delays on the commuter services where it belongs. If NJT passengers want a faster ride they can pay Regional prices.

Nasadowsk wrote: Better idea: re-activate the NY Pittsburgh subway. Combined with below, there's ZERO reason why NY - HBG trains need to stop at Philly, period. NY - Philly is covered by Regionals, DC to HBG could cover Philly - HBG.

well, except for the fact Philly makes up a large portion of the ridership and the state pays for Harrisburg to Philly, not NY. If Pittsburgh service is ever upgraded, I can see full service trains (cafe) using the subway and only stopping at north philly with a transfer to commuter trains at Paoli but for now, the service makes sense the way it's currently routed.

Nasadowsk wrote: DC and the Airport, IMHO. Suburban's a waste as a stop for an intercity train - that's why SEPTA exists. With an airport stop at HBG, this could give Philly a very useful 2nd airport. With high enough speeds, Harrisburg's airport could be competitive even with the NY ones...

suburban is a better stop than 30th, it's much more central, it just makes no sense for through trains unfortunately. the problem is that NY is attractive because it has flights you can't get in Philly. Personally, I'd like to see a stop at AP Green which is across the street from the airport's economy parking lot, giving riders access to cheap long term parking for trips to philly or NY, perhaps some Philly bound trains should terminate at PHL giving harrisburg area residents (and lancaster) access to the flights out of philly.

as for SEPTA to Lancaster, it isn't happening for now. I think an extension to coatesville is much more likely. corridor one is a waste (for now). improved service to york and reading from harrisburg should come first, and pittsburgh is more important than baltimore/harrisburg. I think the line needs to be further improved and extended west. and trip time to penn station is more important than stoppin gin princeton jct, IMO.

Suburban Station wrote: well, except for the fact Philly makes up a large portion of the ridership and the state pays for Harrisburg to Philly, not NY. If Pittsburgh service is ever upgraded, I can see full service trains (cafe) using the subway and only stopping at north philly with a transfer to commuter trains at Paoli but for now, the service makes sense the way it's currently routed.

That's why I think it should be in conjunction with a service from DC or the airport, out to HBG. Then you get the Philly HBG market, and the NY HBG market gets a faster ride, too.

suburban is a better stop than 30th, it's much more central, it just makes no sense for through trains unfortunately.

That's the big problem. The Market-Suburban-30th street run would be MUCH better suited otherwise.

Personally, I'd like to see a stop at AP Green which is across the street from the airport's economy parking lot, giving riders access to cheap long term parking for trips to philly or NY, perhaps some Philly bound trains should terminate at PHL giving harrisburg area residents (and lancaster) access to the flights out of philly.

A better idea? A stop right at the airport, near the terminal. For some reason, the US has an aversion to this. In other countries, they don't. Amsterdam, NS is right there in the basement. SBB's in the basement at Zurich, too. The 'best' connections on the NEC are Newark, with that silly amusement park ride, and BWI, followed by the multiple change to JFK.

I think the line needs to be further improved and extended west.

HBG to Pittsburgh is the poster child for a high performance tilt DMU. Don't hold your breath.

For those Keystones that terminate/originate at Philly 30th Street Station, why not have them originate at Suburban Station? Granted there are only a few a day (but frequency could be increased). This was my thoughts when originally posted. The through trains to NYC would still come into Philly 30th Street Station lower level (status quo). And I would not jeopardize their current frequency on the Keystone Line from Harrisburg to Philly to New York City, as presently this is a good balance.

Suburban Station wrote: Personally, I'd like to see a stop at AP Green which is across the street from the airport's economy parking lot, giving riders access to cheap long term parking for trips to philly or NY, perhaps some Philly bound trains should terminate at PHL giving harrisburg area residents (and lancaster) access to the flights out of philly.

"across the street"? Even if the station has access from the south side, (which would mean access through the Middletown borough sheds), you are still looking at 3-4 blocks minimum, including crossing over the intersection of truck Rt. 441 and the airport driveway. And if the station were to be built on the east side of the property towards town, then you are getting away from any reasonable walking distance to the airport's lot. So you would need a shuttle bus. Doable, yes, but it's not like the parking lot is right there.

Nasadowsk wrote: That's why I think it should be in conjunction with a service from DC or the airport, out to HBG. Then you get the Philly HBG market, and the NY HBG market gets a faster ride, too.

I coulD see ten a day to NY stopping only at north philly (some or all from west of harrisburg)and ten a day to PHL/DC eventually. maybe even turn trains at NYP.

Nasadowsk wrote: That's the big problem. The Market-Suburban-30th street run would be MUCH better suited otherwise.

in a perfect world, the nec might be rerouted (at at least new track tacked onto) such that it comes down 95 to the commuter tunnel so that Keystone/Trenton trains run through cc on the way to 30th st station and pittsburgh.

Nasadowsk wrote: A better idea? A stop right at the airport, near the terminal. For some reason, the US has an aversion to this. In other countries, they don't. Amsterdam, NS is right there in the basement. SBB's in the basement at Zurich, too. The 'best' connections on the NEC are Newark, with that silly amusement park ride, and BWI, followed by the multiple change to JFK.

I don't really agree. the airport site lacks access to parking and the town of middle town. MDT is a bit player at best and the main draw is that it's easier to park and drive to than PHL. More important is a connection to PHL where they are investing $5.2 bn in improvements, likely on top of a new runway. a shuttle connection to MDT is just fine.

Nasadowsk wrote: HBG to Pittsburgh is the poster child for a high performance tilt DMU. Don't hold your breath.

Rendell is spending $300 million on pet projects in the current budget, that money would have gone a long way to improving service. I'm curious what comes out of the Keystone West study.

gp80mac wrote:"across the street"? Even if the station has access from the south side, (which would mean access through the Middletown borough sheds), you are still looking at 3-4 blocks minimum, including crossing over the intersection of truck Rt. 441 and the airport driveway. And if the station were to be built on the east side of the property towards town, then you are getting away from any reasonable walking distance to the airport's lot. So you would need a shuttle bus. Doable, yes, but it's not like the parking lot is right there.

okay, 3-4 blocks which is certainly walkable, shuttle bus should stop there for an airport connection. the station location is less important than platform connections, IMO...especially once print at home tickets are phased in.

Here are some photos of the Elizabethtown Station renovation:

http://mst145.rrpicturearchives.net/sho ... id=2134077

http://mst145.rrpicturearchives.net/sho ... id=2134078

M.T.

I read on DVARP site that Amtrak is doing some track improvements to the line. The new schedule goes in affect this Monday. Does anybody know where they are doing it?

Here is a link to the article.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20100708/pl_usnw/DC32651_1

The roof on that station is magnificent.

Lackawanna565 wrote:I read on DVARP site that Amtrak is doing some track improvements to the line. The new schedule goes in affect this Monday. Does anybody know where they are doing it?

Here is a link to the article.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20100708/pl_usnw/DC32651_1

Where is this new schedule? Amtrak's site and the catchthekeystone site still have the same one effective May 10th, 2010.

SEPTAR3kid wrote: Where is this new schedule? Amtrak's site and the catchthekeystone site still have the same one effective May 10th, 2010.

I just looked at Amtrak's website. They didn't post a new schedule or announce anything on there. On the website where you can put in the stations you are traveling to and from. The schedules for the line are different that the ones in the timetable. For example: Train 650 on the May 10th timetable is scheduled to leave Harrisburg at noon. Now it's leaving at 11:45. I'm surprised that Amtrak didn't say anything about this new schedule on their website. Some people are going to be mad when they show to the station and their train left ten to fifthteen minutes earlier. Also I found out what Amtrak is doing to the line. They are doing work in Middletown.

Here is a link to the article.
http://www.centralpennbusiness.com/arti ... ?task=view