ALCO's Biting the Dust?

RE:...."those smoky Alcos"

If the railroad adjusts the fuel racks properly, they will smoke alot less. However, I am not sure how much of the prime mover is controlled by computer. That being the case, then maybe the computers need some attention.

oibu wrote:"NJT's 4100-4112 would seem IMO to work well on the NYS&W pulling SU99 and SU100 when they soon become available. "

yeah, put about EIGHT of them on a train and they'd be great

Re-geared for freight and less the HEP unit, four would handle a SU99 or SU100 with ease.

750 HP per 16 axles [GP40P] versus 900 HP per 18 axles [C636, M636] should suffice here. 12,000 HP (4 reliable EMDs) vs. 10,800 HP (3 shabby smokers).

BlockLine_4111 wrote:

oibu wrote:"NJT's 4100-4112 would seem IMO to work well on the NYS&W pulling SU99 and SU100 when they soon become available. "

yeah, put about EIGHT of them on a train and they'd be great

Re-geared for freight and less the HEP unit, four would handle a SU99 or SU100 with ease.

750 HP per 16 axles [GP40P] versus 900 HP per 18 axles [C636, M636] should suffice here. 12,000 HP (4 reliable EMDs) vs. 10,800 HP (3 shabby smokers).

On a railroad like the Susquehanna, tractive effort is probably more
important than horsepower. The six motor Alcos have lots of tractive
effort to handle the grades involved.
Four motor engines of 3000 HP probably would not be ideal power for the
railroad with their grades, heavy trains and only moderate speeds.
3000 HP, four motor engines can be quite slippery on heavy grades with
heavy trains.
Noel Weaver

Moderate speeds perhaps but are the grades and loads that significant?
We don't see ore or unit coal trains on the 'Q' with pusher districts or assignments.

BlockLine_4111 wrote:Moderate speeds perhaps but are the grades and loads that significant?
We don't see ore or unit coal trains on the 'Q' with pusher districts or assignments.

The grades on the Susquehanna certainally are significant. Gulf Summit
and Sparta Mountain tax the tractive effort for all that it is worth.
Noel Weaver

If four SD-40's are "down on their hands and knees", crawling their way up the mountain, why would you imagine that 8 axles less, with the same HP would make the grade? Those Geeps are fine, for quick, light trains, but for lugging tonnage, the SD's were built for that purpose. Those Alco's are also excellent, for lugging the tonnage, at speeds that seem too slow to run at. As far as SD-90's go, the M&B uses the 6000HP version, to switch out trains with, and runs them at a mind numbing 10 mph, all day long. Why couldn't the Suzy acquire a few, for the WS-1,2 and 3?

or try and grab some from that leasing company.

Noel Weaver wrote:

BlockLine_4111 wrote:Moderate speeds perhaps but are the grades and loads that significant?
We don't see ore or unit coal trains on the 'Q' with pusher districts or assignments.

The grades on the Susquehanna certainally are significant. Gulf Summit
and Sparta Mountain tax the tractive effort for all that it is worth.
Noel Weaver

Which direction is the grade at Gulf Summit? IIRC Conrail used GP40s and also to lesser degree GP38s for years on manifests and TVs on the Tier. When the B40s ran the 'Q' how did they peform over Sparta Mtn. and Gulf Summit?

BlockLine_4111 wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:

BlockLine_4111 wrote:Moderate speeds perhaps but are the grades and loads that significant?
We don't see ore or unit coal trains on the 'Q' with pusher districts or assignments.

The grades on the Susquehanna certainally are significant. Gulf Summit
and Sparta Mountain tax the tractive effort for all that it is worth.
Noel Weaver

Which direction is the grade at Gulf Summit? IIRC Conrail used GP40s and also to lesser degree GP38s for years on manifests and TVs on the Tier. When the B40s ran the 'Q' how did they peform over Sparta Mtn. and Gulf Summit?

I believe the grade at Gulf Summit would be in both directions while the
grade on Sparta is probably worse eastbound than westbound.
It does not matter what Conrail used on the vans, six motor power is much better on grades of this nature. Conrail also used four motor power
over Horseshoe on some van trains but six motor power was the primary
power over that stretch.
This has been discussed previously on this same topic, suggest you look at
previous posts.
Noel Weaver

Yes I do recall these older posts.

What I was specifically referring to were the BUOI/OIBU, ELOI/EL mainfests which used to run the Tier with Geeps.

Question. In the 70-80s CR era did they have a pusher district at Gulf Summit with a unit (e.g. U boat) kept in Deposit, NY?

Re: a bunch of stuff in this thread-

There is more to moving a train than raw HP- T.E> is what determines whether a trains makes the hill or stalls. Four 3000 HP 6-motors will greatly outpull 4 3000-hp 4-axles due to the extra axles as well as the greater weight (greater loco wt= greater T.E. for the same available HP). So whiel I was exxaggerating a little bit, you'd still probably want to have at least 5 if not 6 GP40s on a heavy SU-99 or SU-100 to be sure you'd make the grades.

Re: the B40s- I can't say anything firsthand, but i don't think the crews had much good to say on how the B40s handled the major grades. Especially on a rainy October morning wityh leaves on the rails. 4000 hp/4 axles = SLIPPERY. B40s are well suited to TV trains on the Chicago line, high HP + flat terrain + light trains = fast run times.

RE: Conrail's power on the Tier: The TV-300 series stack trains in the 80s got anywhere from 3-6 unit sets of GP40s and B36-7s. The OIBU/BUOI would typically have 3, maybe 4 Gp40s, then later in the 80s it was usually pairs and trios of SD50s and SD40-2s with some GP40s, C30-7As, and C36-7s thrown in for good measure.

Conrail did still have a pusher assignment at Deposit until 1978 or 79 or so when a lot of trains stopped running the Tier.

Sorry for going off topic, but does anyone know what the frequency of trains on the Southern Tier between Port Jervis and Binghamton were during the early 1980's?? Can't be much more then today...

Thanks,
Steve

It changed around a lot, so the answer would depend on exactly when. Generally I'd say there were a good 8 or so trains a day till just about 1980, probably 2-4 trains a day (usually more like the 4) in the early 80s, mid-late 80s was busier again with OIBU/BUOI, OIEL/ELOI, and the TV300-series stack trains (more or less 1 stack train a day) plus an occasional acid train (Sarnia , Ont to Sayrevile NJ IIRC), as well as the NYS&W traffic which started out as a weekly haulage train and by 1986 or so was good for about 6 trains a week.

Don't forget the grade from Bingo to Syracuse including the Cortland area are fairly tough and curvy. Not that I am a fan of the Alco's and dread catching one as a leader on the Q404/403 at Geddes St.. I have run B36-7's on coal trains in Rochester, NY on the Charlotte Branch and struggled to keep them from slipping and get them to crawl up the west yard. 4xl's are good for speed but it takes 6 axles to get down and digin and put the hp to the rails. That being said Walter bought the cheapest powerful 6 xls
he could grab trying to fill a power gap. He needs to keep looking, or bring those SD70's back. Shoulda bought some of those former Conrail c-30/33/36s that got sold to South American companys.

I worked for the NYSW for sometime and I can tell you they cheap out when they can. I owned an alco and it was a pain to keep up. Plus NYSW has only one big shop, Utica. They need to beef up on the shop foce and buy new parts. When I was there we got used PA's and heads. I mean the 120 could have come in handy but it was in deep as well. But if you look at what wally did by adding the C's, he was able to add more trains, free up some of the EMD's for some much needed work, and keep the trains going. As for those SD-38's from LLPX. NYSW wanted to buy them but they had been spoken for. So he bought the SD-40's 1601, 02, 04? Just they sucked. Are any of they still in sevice? All told NYSW is a hard road for motive power and the loco market is not good at this time. A company I work for bought a B-23-7 and a month later the same units from the same batch and not in as good a shape sold for almost $50k more! So I don't think you will see the marks on the alco's change until the market improves.

JJ