• Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by STrRedWolf
 
Before we get too much farther, the Bombardier Multilevel is 14.5' tall, or 4.42 meters. Lets consider that as the limit for getting it under the Hudson and not getting any interference from the caternary.

The Talgo 22's is over that at 4.6 meters to 4.95 meters.

The Alstom Avelia Horizon ranges from 4.32 meters (14' 2.125") to 4.7 meters (15' 5").

Now, I've been in the Multilevel (the MARC IV cars). They're good cars. I've used them as a basis for in my fictional train consist (see my signature). They work to NYP. They fit practically everywhere. So a Avelia Horizon based Acela Mk.3 consist isn't out of the question provided they keep it under 14.5 feet...

...I just wonder how the floor layout of it looks like, and how much headroom you'll have.

Of course, I could throw out the "not in my life time" prediction of Amtrak replacing the whole NYC setup to accommodate 16' tall cars. But fun is that?
Last edited by STrRedWolf on Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by STrRedWolf
 
photobug56 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:53 pm What is a multiliner?
Sorry, I meant Multilevel. Let me...
Code: Select all
s/Multiliner/Multilevel/g
:)

Although now you got me thinking I should call the cars I designed Thompson Rail Skunkworks Multiliners... but that's a topic for another forum section...
  by photobug56
 
Do you know if this equipment could fit through the tunnels for LIRR East Side Access? Just curious - it would be over running 3rd rail, no pantograph, but what I'm really getting at is whether they have the basis to build a double decker with dual mode loco that could fit ESA.
  by frequentflyer
 
So yes, a TGV Duplex would fit on the NEC. As been stated multilevel cars have running for decades through the Hudson tubes.

Lets just hope Amtrak gets whatever technical gremlins fixed so we can run the single level TGV like set Amtrak do have.
  by STrRedWolf
 
photobug56 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:11 am Do you know if this equipment could fit through the tunnels for LIRR East Side Access? Just curious - it would be over running 3rd rail, no pantograph, but what I'm really getting at is whether they have the basis to build a double decker with dual mode loco that could fit ESA.
Wikipedia says they're boring 22 feet diameter tunnels. Assuming that 1 foot is taken up by support structures and cabling, the maximum height of a car is... 17 feet (according to some calculation based on a 10.5' wide car). You could still carry caternary there.

Metra ordered a variant of the Alstom Concordia Duplex, which is low-floor and 14' 1" high. That's kinda cramped for a double level. The Bombardier MultiLevel isn't too bad, but the shorter you go, the more you duck... but then the US population is averaging 5' 10". (Curse me for being tall)
  by photobug56
 
In 1996, I was part of a Citizens Advisory Group for East Side Access for LIRR. LIRR officials at the time told me that they were ordering double deckers - the C3's, that were 2 to 3 inches too tall for the existing 63rd Street East River Tunnel (one of two decks had gone into service after decades of waiting, the other was for LIRR - but designed by NYCTA). Now that ESA may finally open late this year, riders in diesel country have to change trains to go into GCT-LIRR (the new deep dive LIRR station way below GCT and Park Avenue). In the meantime, the C3 junkers and DE/DM30 locos are constantly breaking down (bad to begin with, not aging well) and one of these decades LIRR will either have to electrify the rest of the way or buy new DM / DE hauled trains, presumably double deckers (due to infrequent service and mostly short trains). So I'm curious - what out there already could be adapted (to hopefully reduce lead time and cost) for ESA, and presumably also, MNCR. It would have to be able to run with overrunning 3rd rail shoes, use high platforms, have ADA seating - and fit.
  by STrRedWolf
 
photobug56 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:28 pm In 1996, I was part of a Citizens Advisory Group for East Side Access for LIRR. LIRR officials at the time told me that they were ordering double deckers - the C3's, that were 2 to 3 inches too tall for the existing 63rd Street East River Tunnel (one of two decks had gone into service after decades of waiting, the other was for LIRR - but designed by NYCTA). Now that ESA may finally open late this year, riders in diesel country have to change trains to go into GCT-LIRR (the new deep dive LIRR station way below GCT and Park Avenue). In the meantime, the C3 junkers and DE/DM30 locos are constantly breaking down (bad to begin with, not aging well) and one of these decades LIRR will either have to electrify the rest of the way or buy new DM / DE hauled trains, presumably double deckers (due to infrequent service and mostly short trains). So I'm curious - what out there already could be adapted (to hopefully reduce lead time and cost) for ESA, and presumably also, MNCR. It would have to be able to run with overrunning 3rd rail shoes, use high platforms, have ADA seating - and fit.
I'd say an adapted Siemens Charger dual-mode and a ton of Alstom MultiLevels -- I just checked Alstom and they're advertising the MultiLevels still via GO Transit and NJ Transit. If it fits in the Hudson and East River tunnels, it'll go anywhere.
  by STrRedWolf
 
photobug56 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:09 pm The Esa tunnel was designed for subway and single level electric music.
The LIRR M3 fleet is a solid 13' tall. The M7 fleet is only an inch and a half shorter. By comparison, the Viewliners are 14' flat. Amfleet II's are 12' 8". The Venture sets used in the mid-west are 14'.

If I take the M3's profile of 13' tall and 10.5' wide, and try to shove two of them side by side, they wouldn't fit in the ESA tunnel at bored size of 22' diameter. You got 17.74' to play with, not enough for even the latest subway cars MTA NYC has to go side-by-side with clearance (which is 9' and change wide).

Just playing with the math alone tells me I got plenty of room to shove a Superliner in the ESA tunnels... which would lead to a topic outside the Acela II's.
  by photobug56
 
But IOTW, it ought to be possible and even practical to come up with a new generation of LIRR double deckers and DM's to pull them, that would fit the ESA tunnels.

Real problem is that LIRR would rather eliminate most service in diesel country on the grounds that it's still all farmland out here (I believe it was Mr. Hoppe who made that claim to me, personally).
  by RandallW
 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mtacc-esa/51053095751/ is a picture of an ESA tunnel. Note that where TBM was used, tunnel roof is higher than where a TBM was not used.

Don't forget that about the first thing done to a 22' tunnel bore is a concrete lining is put in place, immediately reducing the tunnel diameter. I estimate the peak of the bored tunnel is little more than 16' above the rail and at best 14' at the edge of the escape walkway.
  by photobug56
 
frequentflyer wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:35 am So yes, a TGV Duplex would fit on the NEC. As been stated multilevel cars have running for decades through the Hudson tubes.

Lets just hope Amtrak gets whatever technical gremlins fixed so we can run the single level TGV like set Amtrak do have.
I'm not talking about the NEC or Hudson Tunnels. Several decades ago, under one of numerous projects started but not finished, NYCTA built a 2 level tunnel under the East River at 63rd Street. One level for the subway, the other level for LIRR. Work started in 1969, stopped in 1975 due to budget problems. In 1989, the subway level went into service. In 1996, LIRR was finally preparing to use its level to go to GCT. I was part of a tour (from the Queens side) into the LIRR level, which was rather damp and, well, empty. LIRR officials told me it was a few inches too short top to bottom for the DE/DM's and C3's they were ordering. I asked them why they didn't order equipment that would fit; they had no answer. But a 'retired on the job' LIRR president, at a hearing on a plan for an electric rail yard east of Huntington, told me that the reason they were not double tracking and electrifying all the way out to Port Jeff (or the previous termination, Wading River) was that it was all farm land east of Huntington. Ignoring Stony Brook U, lots of commuters, etc.

Not too long ago, at a PCAC meeting, those on the call were told, more or less, that MTA planned a dual order of diesel equipment for MNCR and LIRR. Then, some time later, those plans, at least for LIRR, were dead and buried. But the existing junk fleet didn't have a great life expectancy in the first place, late 1990's. Now, 'dead man walking' seems to describe the situation. In the meantime, Grand Central LIRR may actually open this year (and hopefully stay open), but from the 'draft' schedules it's clear that diesel country is not a priority. Their excuse is that diesel equipment won't fit, currently correct. So the question - is there equipment they can buy, mostly off the shelf, that could provide LIRR DM double decker service from diesel country to GCT?
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