Wisconsin Talgos Disposition - MI and now Pacific Surfliner

It will depend on how much fallout Lansing gets when the Detroit bankruptcy finally settles out.
Amtrak is about to retire the ex-El Cap lounge cars from the Starlight,they don't want to deal
with the long OOS El Cap coaches.

Backshophoss wrote: Amtrak is about to retire the ex-El Cap lounge cars from the Starlight,they don't want to deal
with the long OOS El Cap coaches.

Shame if so. Nicest cars in the Amtrak fleet! And those swivel chairs - oh so comfortable!

110 mph?

David Benton wrote:110 mph?

There are sections of track on the Michigan route which allow 110 mph speeds, no section of track on the Cascades route is. Therefore, Talgo train sets could go 110 mph in Michigan, but not in the Pacific Northwest, because they are built for 125 mph if the tracks allow it. Add some more brakes on each axle, the Talgo train sets could be rated to go faster..

Station Aficionado wrote:Looks like a spitting contest has erupted regarding Michigan's possible purchase of the Talgos.
. . .
Corridor Capital owns a fleet of ex-ATSF Hi-Level cars that it has (so far unsuccessfully) been offering to various state DOTs.

That Detroit News article tells us how the state really feels about the Amtrak-supplied cars on the Michigan services. LOL.

Aluminum coaches on the Wolverine route . . . where three trains a day often run at capacity, lack modern amenities and are deteriorating because Amtrak has no budget to overhaul them, according to MDOT. They have institutional decor, lack carpeting, have harsh lighting and lack hot water in restrooms, the state department says.

Hope the plan goes thru. But sadly, reads to me like the piss in the pissing contest is coming from "friends of Scott Walker" who probably think that a success for the Talgo trains would put a bad light on the decisions made in Wisconsin not to use them.

It appears that this discussion has leapt from the fact that the Talgos have been moved to Beech Grove, to the reports that Michigan 'might be interested' in a short term lease of such, and now, at least so far as a Detroit News Lansing Bureau reporter is concerned, onto that Michigan has made a purchase commitment for the equipment.

How did we get from 'interested' to 'done deal'? the cited by Mr. Afficiando or simply speculation. Enquiring mind wants to know.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:It appears that this discussion has leapt from the fact that the Talgos have been moved to Beech Grove, to the reports that Michigan 'might be interested' in a short term lease of such, and now, at least so far as a Detroit News Lansing Bureau reporter is concerned, onto that Michigan has made a purchase commitment for the equipment.

How did we get from 'interested' to 'done deal'? the cited by Mr. Afficiando or simply speculation. Enquiring mind wants to know.

Careful reading of the Detroit News article:

"is . . . buying passenger rail cars that Wisconsin rejected",
"a pending $58 million Michigan Department of Transportation deal",
"Talgo was the only bidder",
"the state is assessing Talgo’s coaches’ ability to perform to its specifications".

"The state’s request for proposals, with a March 31 deadline, sought
two complete sets of cars, each capable of carrying 310 to 350 passengers,
MDOT railroad chief Tim Hoeffner told the committee. The state wants
to have them in service in September."

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2014 ... z34FrKCL7U" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd say the Detroit News reporter did a fine job with this story.
The sources are current or former office holders in Michigan,
and spokespersons for Talgo and the guys with the nostalgia
equipment. The reporter is not injecting his own words here,
he's using, and identifying, solid sources

What happened here is that the State of Michigan, under its
Republican Governor Rick Snyder, announced what it wanted
to do, and is doing it. Sort of surprising. But until some guys
arrived to try to sow doubt and confusion, the deal was on
the fast track and keeping to schedule.

I love the plan. Putting Talgo train sets on the Wolverine route
could allow Michigan to add a frequency, or another train. If it
thinks the Horizon cars are not good enough, other Midwestern
state-supported routes that need more capacity will probably
add the coaches to existing trains.

If not, Amtrak can move the old Horizons with "institutional decor,
lack carpeting, have harsh lighting, lack hot water in restrooms"
and "lack modern amenities" (guess that means lack enuff outlets
and Wi-Fi) to Beech Grove. That way get an early start on the much
needed make-overs so they can be used elsewhere.

electricron wrote:

David Benton wrote:110 mph?

There are sections of track on the Michigan route which allow 110 mph speeds, no section of track on the Cascades route is. Therefore, Talgo train sets could go 110 mph in Michigan, but not in the Pacific Northwest, because they are built for 125 mph if the tracks allow it. Add some more brakes on each axle, the Talgo train sets could be rated to go faster..

sorry was late at night on the cell phone. I was meaning to question if the old stock (el cap?) was capable of 110 mph , if it was not , then they have been fairly excluded.

Mr. Benton, at their webpage, this concern Corridor Capital LLC states their fleet of ATSF/Amtrak Hi-levels can operate at 110mph, however, they have never been used in revenue service at speeds greater than 90.

From the Brief Passage that Woody has captioned, be sure to note the term PENDING. Nothing yet has been finalized.

David Benton wrote: sorry was late at night on the cell phone. I was meaning to question if the old stock (el cap?) was capable of 110 mph , if it was not , then they have been fairly excluded.

Direct excerpt from the Michigan DOT RFP below. Does the fleet of ATSF cars meet all of following requirements for conventional equipment? ADA compliant, "Amtrak certified", equipped for push-pull operations at 110 mph, either qualified for 110 mph operation or capable of being qualified for 110 mph by this fall? If not, then sorry, don't bother to bid.

MDOT is seeking to procure one of two types of passenger equipment – either conventional passenger cars or integral trainsets. Passenger equipment offered by Proposers shall meet the following requirements:

• Conventional passenger cars:
o Minimum offer size: two trainsets with a minimum of 310 revenue seats each (minimum 620 revenue seats overall);
o Nominal 85-foot length;
o Single-level, multi-level or gallery carbody configuration (Note that Michigan prefers that all cars supplied be similar design and of the same basic carbody configuration);
o ADA compliant;
o Equipped with restroom accommodations;
o Each train equipped with one café car;
o Amtrak certified;
o Equipped for push-pull service in conformance with Amtrak standards;
o Equipped with HEP trainlines and communication trainlines in conformance with Amtrak standards; and
o Currently holding qualification for 110 MPH operation or capable of being qualified for 110 MPH operation in accordance with the Anticipated Project Schedule. The Contractor shall be responsible for all costs associated with the FRA-mandated testing required to achieve qualification to operate the equipment at 110 mph in the high-speed portions of the Detroit – Pontiac corridor.

However, $58 million is a LOT for the 2 Talgo trainsets compared to the equivalent capacity cost of the corridor bi-levels being build by Nippon-Sharyo (~$2.7 million per bi-level car).

afiggatt wrote: However, $58 million is a LOT for the 2 Talgo trainsets compared to the equivalent capacity cost of the corridor bi-levels being build by Nippon-Sharyo (~$2.7 million per bi-level car).

That's $58 million for 31 Talgo cars, that's less than $2 million per car. But the capacities between the BiLevel and Talgo cars are different. On average, Talgo coach capacity is 36 passengers per car, BiLevels coach capacity is 90 passengers per car.
That's almost three times more in the BiLevel, therefore only needing a third as many cars. So, off-hand BiLevels should be cheaper. I'm not so sure if you consider the additional spare BiLevels that would be required, Talgo trainset availability records are hard to beat.

I thought there was an FRA regulation or two about high speed certification and older equipment? I want to know how this Corridor Capital people accomplished this!

what's the performance differential for tilting cars on the line?

electricron wrote: That's $58 million for 31 Talgo cars, that's less than $2 million per car. But the capacities between the BiLevel and Talgo cars are different. On average, Talgo coach capacity is 36 passengers per car, BiLevels coach capacity is 90 passengers per car.
That's almost three times more in the BiLevel, therefore only needing a third as many cars. So, off-hand BiLevels should be cheaper. I'm not so sure if you consider the additional spare BiLevels that would be required, Talgo trainset availability records are hard to beat.

Even adding in spares and more cars, the Bi-levels come out ahead on capacity and cost against $58 million. If the 2 Bi-level consists are 5 cars each with 2 spares (for the pool) for a total of 12 cars, at $2.7 million each, the price tag is $32.5 million. If the bi-level consists are expanded to 6 cars each (4 coach, 1 cafe-BC, 1 cab-baggage-coach) with 4 spares for a total of 16 cars, the price tag is $43.3 million.

For Michigan, it is even less as the bi-levels for MI are being paid for with entirely federal funds. Perhaps that is why MDOT has funds to spend on 2 new Talgos. On the other hand, $58 million could be Talgos opening bid and MDOT will negotiate down the final price.

To make the El Cap Cars ADA compliant would need a Bathroom overhaul on the lower level and the removal of some seats
on the lower level.
Question is: Are these cars converted to HEP(at Beech Grove) or do they retain their antique Gensets?
The MAS for the El Caps was 90mph.