Sleeper Car Designation Conventions?

[wireflight]

As part of a very much larger project, I am attempting to compile a reasonably comprehensive list (actually, a database) of passenger car consists, including the design and history of each car, beginning with the Southern Pacific Railroad; I recognize and am grateful for the work of others in the field, but what I am working on ultimately goes far beyond mere railroad data. Nevertheless, the specifics are important to my research.

I am presently stuck with what is probably the most bone-headed of problems for a researcher to have. Realizing that some cars are (were) acquisitions -- and occasionally conversions -- from other roads, and that some cars will by other roads be acquired and sometimes converted, my rolling-stock picture defines each configuration of each car between two dates, and associates routing and other information. So, here is my question:

Sleepers tend to be described with numbers that occasionally resemble Whyte steam locomotive designations (for example: "4-4-2"); however, those numbers respecting sleepers obviously doesn't refer to either the number of axles or wheels associated with a particular railcar. Making matters more confusing, some are described with numeric sequences such as "8-5" or "4-4-5-1." How do I translate these numbers for a useful understanding regarding the configuration of accommodations?

If there is no standard convention for such designations, please point me to a list indicating the practice used by each builder or (gee, I hope it doesn't get this complex) railroad. The main thing at this point is simply to understand exactly what is meant by each of those numbers.

For each car, I am looking for all the information containing important sociological clues: how many of what type of berths were configured in what orientation, what facilities were available and which were private, etc. I also need at least the coupled length of each railcar, and its tare and gross weights. Detailed dimensional data would be nice, but I can work around that on the assumption that each consist required interoperable equipment. I suspect the finished database will be quite large.

Thanks!

[westr]

Those numbers do refer to the accomodations of sleeping cars. There isn't really a standard for them though, so there's no sure fire way to tell just by them what the car's accomodations are. There were some configurations that were pretty common, such as:
12-1: 12 Open Sections, 1 Drawing Room
4-4-2: 4 Bedrooms, 4 Compartments, 2 Drawing Rooms
10-6: 10 Roomettes, 6 Bedrooms
But even those aren't necessarily correct 100% of the time. Getting an accurate floor plan for a car or group of cars is the only way to be be sure.

Sometimes it can get confusing. For example: Union Pacific's 6-6-4 "American" Series cars had:
6 Open Sections
6 Roomettes
4 Bedrooms
While the 6-4-6 "National" Series cars had the same number of accomodations, but with a different floor plan with the 4 Bedrooms in the middle instead of the end, so the designation is different.

Here are some links that you might find useful:
http://www.pullmancar.org/
http://pullmanproject.com/
http://utahrails.net/ (Has Union Pacific Passenger Car Info)
http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/ (Has Pennsylvania Passenger Car Info)
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-PASS.htm (Has New York Central Passenger Car Info)
http://www.trainweb.org/hiawatha/passenger.html (Has Milwaukee Road Passenger Car Info)
http://trainweb.org/web_lurker/WebLurkersDOMEmain/ (Has Dome Car Info)

[eddiebehr]

You should probably find a copy of Wayner's CAR NAMES, NUMBER and CONSISTS which covers passenger train consists and car orders for railroads from the start of the streamline era to Amtrak. It has the initial consist of each name train and if re-equipped once or twice more in later years with new cars has that info. too. Lots of coach info. also. Also has info. on car sales and data on which road actually owned what. As an example, for the Overland Route, UP owned many of the cars, but C & NW and SP also provided some. Likewise Golden State Route had cars of both Rock Island and SP in consists. For the Northern transcons., GN and NP owned most of the cars in the feature trains but CB&Q and SP&S owned some. This book covers streamline era only. Geoff Doughty wrote a number of books on NYC. And there are books on B&O and SP streamline trains and consists. Look around for some consist books; try e-bay or some railroad historical society archives. See if you can find Theodore (Ted) Shrady in the Chicago area. Last I knew he was working on a project involving the records of the Pullman Company. He has also written a book (or books) on Pullman cars. As far as how complex your project might be, it might not be that complicated. Until 1947 or so, virtually all sleeping cars in the United States were built and operated by Pullman and after that date, until the passenger business began to fall apart, it also operated virtually all sleeping cars in the U. S. Pullman also built lots of feature cars too, diners, lounges and also coaches. Some railroads were very partial to the Pullman product and avoided buying products of other builders.

[wireflight]

WOW! I had no idea the position of the numbers within a particular road's usage would mean different things (as per the American- and National-series notes).

I understand the passion for "model railroading" held by most small children: the interesting part of a freight train is almost always the locomotive, and the rest of the train is the mass (usually) pulled or pushed by the locomotive. For most, the notion of a box on wheels is uninspiring: it doesn't DO anything; the same is true for the cylinder on wheels. Hoppers, gondolas and flats and log cars probably inspire the most play. Operating a crane car diminishes the fantasy: to a child, it's more work than play. Unfortunately, not many seem to advance to the "curiosity" stage that such play can inspire.

Consequently, (toy "scale") train sets need not accurately model specific rolling stock: a superficial resemblance to a plausible or actual prototype is generally adequate. For a child, the attraction of a scale passenger train is the fantasy of riding safely ensconced in that mysterious behemoth: feeling the power of the engine as the train accelerates; meeting strangers, making their acquaintance and laying the groundwork for new friendships; marveling at the exotic and majestic landscapes through which the train rushes; and visiting quaint and remote destinations.

The fantasy of every train can be summed in several words: safety, reliability, power, speed; passenger trains add the element of luxury. I suppose these beliefs ultimately form the basis of the railfan's aesthetic and subtle other factors guide persons so motivated to become modelers or reporters: to express through the forms relating to railroading the art kindled in their respective spirits. Still others go on to become railroad employees, entrepreneurs or regulators.

Thankfully, serious modelers of prototypes are surprisingly common: their vocal presence in the greater community has directly translated to higher quality in retail RTR and kit stock, the coding of rail material and the availability of a variety of coded sizes of rail for the hobbyist, and to the greater availability of information concerning all things prototypical -- from scenery, to hardware and rolling stock, to patterns and practices of operation.

Although my research extends to pre-Civil War trains, because my research includes streamliners, Amtrak, etc., I will endeavor to locate and read the recommended book -- and while I shall definitely explore the links provided, I find very hard to fathom that scale modelers have for years been building and operating their passenger train sets without a definitive, single-point source for detailed passenger train data.

I've actually known some such people (I'm not one of them) to both count and "adjust" (correct) the number and location of "rivets" on a tender, and to modify the underside of railcars to match specific prototypes. I don't recall specifics, but do remember the quality of those efforts was stunning: the mods were discernible only by careful, close contrast against an unmodified model. Those modelers are ... entirely or almost entirely ... without exception master artists, and they derive greatest pleasure from the accuracy of their models.

Unfortunately, it seems my quest will have me assembling the resource I thought they would very long ago have created.

Thanks, again, for the help!

[John_Perkowski]

Tom Madden sponsors the Pullman Project. He is the de facto dean of Pullman Company researchers.

Most Pullmanologists I know discuss PLAN numbers for cars. A 2410 is an early HW 12-1, a 3410 is a different plan from later in the HW era. A 4099 car is a 1941 6 Section, 6 Roomette, 4 Double Bedroom Car.

Tom has his databases available for download at his website:

http://pullmanproject.com/

Additionally, Tom sponsors a yahoo group on passenger equipment: It's callled the Passenger Car List.

For certain car families, a name prefix is a useful convention too. Say Pacific Union and I know you are talking about a Budd 10-6 bought by UP. Ask about a Pine series car, and my first guess is a Budd ATSF 10-6.

[wireflight]

Awesome!