SEPTA keeping push-pulls for the future?

[SCB2525]

There's a whole new generation of younger people who take public transportation and don't own or want cars.

Which precludes the majority of suburban commuter service. If your aim is to serve this "new generation" it will largely be done within or close to the city limits, where mass transit affords the easiest possibility of living without a car. The only thing I could conceivably see being done to tap into this market on the railroad would be to open a new station at say Fairmount Ave. on the main line to serve gentrified Northern Liberties (which I don't think is overtly worthwhile) or re-extension of Cynwyd to Manayunk/Ivy Ridge.

While SEPTA is reaching a ceiling for railroad ridership and should address it, suburban commuter service demands expansion for a greater reduction in total regional VMT. It only makes sense to also try and serve those who live in the suburbs but don't currently live near a line.

[SCB2525]

I guess service expansion could be taken two ways, I was referring to an increase in frequencies on existing lines really. Wouldn't that work toward handling increased loads?

Yes it would, however at least the Reading side is at physical capacity for train throughput. The only short-term solutions are multi-levels, coordinated combining of trains at Jenkintown (I won't hold my breath), or reducing reverse peak service to allow regular peak direction travel on both tracks. Longer term, a third track Jenkintown to Wayne and lengthening of platforms to 10+ cars when rebuilt should absolutely be a priority.

It makes me wonder; certainly SEPTA railroad ridership has never been as high as the Reading or Pennsy at their peak, even when comparing individual lines. How did they handle those loads then?

[MattW]

Ok, interesting. So what's the bottleneck on the Reading side? It sounds like it's the two tracks between Jenkintown and Wayne Junction.

[SCB2525]

Bingo.

[scotty269]

The only thing I could conceivably see being done to tap into this market on the railroad would be to open a new station at say Fairmount Ave. on the main line to serve gentrified Northern Liberties (which I don't think is overtly worthwhile) or re-extension of Cynwyd to Manayunk/Ivy Ridge.

Or, how about tunneling a new subway under American Street from Fern Rock to NoLibs?

[Push&Pull Master]

Ok, interesting. So what's the bottleneck on the Reading side? It sounds like it's the two tracks between Jenkintown and Wayne Junction.

The bottleneck is precisely Wayne Junction to Jenkintown. According to DVARP's website the maximum headways between Wayne Junction and Jenkintown is a train every 3 minutes or 20 trains an hour and probably less north of Fern Rock.

Approximately these are the headways per line north of Wayne Junction*.

Fox Chase: 2
West Trenton: 4
Warminster: 2
Lansdale/Doylestown: 4
Glenside Local: 2

Total: 14/20

* Don't take this as a fact

Because there is only 1 track each way and there are stops between Fern Rock and Jenkintown, express trains can't jump ahead of locals, which requires complex scheduling.

So as SCB said, there are few short term solutions:
A. Bi-level coaches
B. Longer trains once more railcars are purchased

[SCB2525]

However, B requires longer platforms and recent station renovations have been built to 6-7 car lengths. Some runs, such as PM peak on West Trenton will run 7 cars and most riders know that they have to go up one or two cars at Somerton, Trevose, etc. but there is confusion and the operation leaves something to be desired. These 7 car trains are packed to the gills every day, and to continue to add capacity via more cars, which WILL ultimately be necessary, platforms would have to be lengthened.

[Clearfield]

Because there is only 1 track each way and there are stops between Fern Rock and Jenkintown, express trains can't jump ahead of locals, which requires complex scheduling.

There is actually a potential solution that MIGHT help.

Replacement of the third track at Melrose.

If it's replaced, and could be accessed by either 1TRK or 2TRK in either direction it could allow trains to pass locals at that location.

[R3 Passenger]

I agree with Mr. Clearfield that restoring the third track at Melrose would be the cheapest option. We all know how SEPTA likes "Cheap."

However, I have a few legitimate questions that expand on Mr. Clearfield's suggestion for "express passing tracks:"

1. I noticed that Track 0 between TABOR and NEWTOWN (JCT) tends to zig-zag when compared to the main beside it. Why is that? And, would the reasons for the zig-zag preclude SEPTA from straightening out that track for higher speeds for regular revenue trips?
2. I have noticed that there seems to be room for another track south of NEWTOWN (JCT) that contains signal huts and other stuff. There are bridges there as well that do not have tracks on them. First, is it CSX or SEPTA-owned ROW? If not SEPTA, would it be possible to have SEPTA purchase it off the owner and relocate those systems? Secondly, would it be possible to extend the outside track of the outbound island platform at Wayne Junction to link up with this track, and then link it to Track 0 at NEWTOWN (JCT)?

[glennk419]

I agree with Mr. Clearfield that restoring the third track at Melrose would be the cheapest option. We all know how SEPTA likes "Cheap."

However, I have a few legitimate questions that expand on Mr. Clearfield's suggestion for "express passing tracks:"

1. I noticed that Track 0 between TABOR and NEWTOWN (JCT) tends to zig-zag when compared to the main beside it. Why is that? And, would the reasons for the zig-zag preclude SEPTA from straightening out that track for higher speeds for regular revenue trips?
2. I have noticed that there seems to be room for another track south of NEWTOWN (JCT) that contains signal huts and other stuff. There are bridges there as well that do not have tracks on them. First, is it CSX or SEPTA-owned ROW? If not SEPTA, would it be possible to have SEPTA purchase it off the owner and relocate those systems? Secondly, would it be possible to extend the outside track of the outbound island platform at Wayne Junction to link up with this track, and then link it to Track 0 at NEWTOWN (JCT)?

1. The 0 Track has the additional curves that you note from when it had to wrap around the outbound platform at the old Tabor Station between Tabor and Olney Avenues. At one time, this track ran up to Tabor Junction but was later cut back to a stub ended siding with a switchback to serve the Fleer Gum Company. It was re-extended to its' current configuration and electrified when the new Fern Rock Station was built (directly on top of the old Tabor Junction). To follow the curvature of the main line, both bridges at Tabor and Olney would need to be replaced, or at a minimum, realigned. The diverging switch just north of Newtown Junction is as much of a restriction to high speeds as the curvature of the track.

2. The empty ROW south of Newtown Junction was once occupied by a second track which ran from Newtown Junction through the Wayne Junction subway to Nicetown Junction and quickly falls away from the mainline once past Broad Street. Any reclamation of that short piece of ROW for SEPTA use would have minimal return on investment. The ROW for the Bethlehem Branch was never any wider than it is today between Wayne and Logan and would require extensive work, along with new bridges at 18th Street and Belfield Avenue, to add a third track although that idea does have merit.

[Head-end View]

Someone mentioned above the possibility of running both tracks in the rush-hour direction to increase capacity between Fern Rock and Jenkintown. It might be a possibility worth exploring. The Long Island Railroad has done this for at least 45 years on a 10 mile stretch of its main-line between Bellerose and Hicksville. For about one hour in the morning and one hour in the afternoon both tracks run in the rush-hour direction. However there is no reverse commuting during that hour and the LIRR badly wants to build a 3rd track but probably won't be able to.

Anyway, like I said, it might be worth looking into the idea. And BTW, on Long Island it's a train watchers' paradise watching the parade from any station platform along that stretch!

[glennk419]

Someone mentioned above the possibility of running both tracks in the rush-hour direction to increase capacity between Fern Rock and Jenkintown. It might be a possibility worth exploring. The Long Island Railroad has done this for at least 45 years on a 10 mile stretch of its main-line between Bellerose and Hicksville. For about one hour in the morning and one hour in the afternoon both tracks run in the rush-hour direction. However there is no reverse commuting during that hour and the LIRR badly wants to build a 3rd track but probably won't be able to.

Anyway, like I said, it might be worth looking into the idea. And BTW, on Long Island it's a train watchers' paradise watching the parade from any station platform along that stretch!

One thing you forgot to mention.....LIRR and MNRR are RAILROADS. SEPTA is a bus agency that happens to run trains.

[Head-end View]

Oh! LOL Sorry...............lost my head there when I made that comparison. Hmmm........well maybe even a bus company could run both tracks in one direction during the rush-hour?

[NorthPennLimited]

Railroads are just as screwed up as bus companies.

I've seen dispatchers running a 90 mile single-track railroad, stuff 6 eastbound trains into 4 passing sidings and hold them for hours, and have the crews outlaw, .......just to run 1 westbound premium on time.

Common sense railroading, and running by the seat of your pants days are LONG GONE.

Now railroads and agencies are run by the lawyers, short-term hungry stock holders, micro management teams, 4 inch thick rule and safety books, PTC, etc......

Things will just constantly get slower over time as railroads adopt more rules, and the FRA and congress and their army of lawyers pass more laws.

[25Hz]

Railroads are just as screwed up as bus companies.

I've seen dispatchers running a 90 mile single-track railroad, stuff 6 eastbound trains into 4 passing sidings and hold them for hours, and have the crews outlaw, .......just to run 1 westbound premium on time.

Common sense railroading, and running by the seat of your pants days are LONG GONE.

Now railroads and agencies are run by the lawyers, short-term hungry stock holders, micro management teams, 4 inch thick rule and safety books, PTC, etc......

Things will just constantly get slower over time as railroads adopt more rules, and the FRA and congress and their army of lawyers pass more laws.

Or they could just put in a new 3rd track from wayne junction to the inbound side of jenkintown (the bridge is wide enough, but the station area is not) using the current crossover inbound of jenkintown, or a new layout closer to the station. Of course you gotta leave room for a new high level station on the inbound side of the bridge as well, or if you dare, the crossover could be within the new station limits a la linden?