Trenton Spur At Frazer/Cross Country Metro

[jfrey40535]

A common NIMBY concern. Reminds me of those anti-Woodhaven signs along Byberry Road "Don't bring Philadelphia's traffic to our neighborhood", even though the ones using Woodhaven are the suburbanites that are crying about the project.

I don't think this is a concern at all. Doylestown isn't infested with drugs because the R5/55 goes there.

Drugs are going to get to their markets regardless of whether SEPTA runs or not.

Exactly. Although I've heard a few stories about people in the 'hood using SEPTA's trolleys to run their deals.

[R3toNEC]

A start of service at Trenton, NJ would draw commuters from NJ.

It would:

• Decrease traffic corridor pollution concerns from truck and autos.
• Provide immediate relief of the need to expand the turnpike further to accommodate increased traffic.
• Plan for our future as the cost of fuel and our commute increase, this would provide a needed relief valve to any potential energy crisis.
• Growth = Upper Moreland / Ft. Washington and KOP could be hubs on this system based on the possible exixting SEPTA connection.
• Give users a definite “commute time” at a reasonable cost, anybody sitting in traffic on the “pike” realizes this benefit.

Does anyone pick up some undesireable effects from the CCM?

I work in Trenton, Upper Moreland and Fort Washington and I can see the drug trade expand from Trenton through the various hubs mentioned by rdg.

Upper Moreland and neighboring Abington already have their fair share of narcotics traffic. From Ft. Washington on the R5, dealers have access to Lansdale and points nearby with even higher rates of drug arrests.

That is quite possibly one of the most asinine reasons for not creating a CCM. Drug activity will exist regardless of mode of transportation. Assuming the introduction of trains will bring an expanded drug trade is barely correlated and assumes drug dealers prefer the omnipresence of trains over their own cars.

[glennk419]

Does anyone pick up some undesireable effects from the CCM?

I work in Trenton, Upper Moreland and Fort Washington and I can see the drug trade expand from Trenton through the various hubs mentioned by rdg.

Upper Moreland and neighboring Abington already have their fair share of narcotics traffic. From Ft. Washington on the R5, dealers have access to Lansdale and points nearby with even higher rates of drug arrests.

You've got to be kidding! That's about the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet!

[rdgrailfan]

OH Boy......the "drug Reason" is so far off base it does not deserve an answer.????

WE are talking about getting service for the cross county metro I thought!

[greg19051]

[quote]Alot of the inner-city stations are gone (Nicetown, Tioga, Logan, Spring Garden, Fkfd Jct, and so on). The ones that remain have been ignored, or might as well have closed signs on them already (Wayne, N Phila, Bridesburg).[quote]

University City station opened in the mid 1990's. There is a new station at Temple U that replaced the station at CB Moore Ave.

[jfrey40535]

And if you don't live near a educational institution that will lobby for a new, well kept train station, you don't get one.

[DickyDunn]

Wow! I haven't seen my girlfriend today, but the posters on this forum have already met her quota for telling me what an idiot I am!

So thank you for meeting her standard for the day; she sends her regards.

I was merely throwing out the hypothetical. Far too often we just see what we want and not see what unintended consequences could arise from something.

I'm as much a proponent for expanded rail service as the next person on this board.

Would anyone like to come off their experienced high horse to enlighten a newcomer such as myself, or should we play a few more rounds of "bash the new kid?"

[greg19051]

And if you don't live near a educational institution that will lobby for a new, well kept train station, you don't get one.

And who might be the largest private (non-government, non-authority) employer in the city?

[jfrey40535]

And who might be the largest private (non-government, non-authority) employer in the city?

That's irrelevant, although I see your point. The facts do speak for themselves that the majority of the city stations are neglected even though they generate the bulk of the revenue, or have the highest population density. I'm not trying to establish a relationship between large employers and train stations. My point is SEPTA does nothing to attract ridership, they sit idle to reduce ridership. There is also a misguided priority of rebuilding stations with insignificant ridership. Why is Cheltenham more of a priority than Fox Chase? Why did Link Belt in farm country get a brand new station but Nicetown on Hunting Park Avenue (with connections to the R, 23, 53, 56, H & XH) get its station oblitterated?

Look at Fox Chase

And that's supposed to be a nice area. Its just unacceptable that stations have to be this dilapodated, seedy and uninviting. Its almost as if SEPTA's attitude is they need us, they'll use it regardless, they can't take care of it, so this is what they get.

Didn't this all come about from that drug question? But going further, building the CCM, Newtown or Quakertown for that matter should be far down the list of transit projects if you want to build something that people will ride, and that would be the Blvd. subway which has a higher population density than all of the above combined. The Blvd has a huge traffic problem, hense the red-light cameras and the debates about pedestrain safety. But it comes of no surprise that the city gets shortchanged since the majority of the SEPTA board members are suburbanites.

[ktrain]

There are several truths about the inner city stations that would need to change to make them workable in Philadelphia.

1. Price v Bus

If the station isn't consider zone 1, forget about it. In fact, if the fare can't be paid in tokens, forget about it. The people in these neighborhoods often times can't afford transpasses each month for their bus rides, let alone zone 2 or more trail passes to use rail lines.

2. The walk factor

Why do people in West Philly take the 21 or 42 versus the El? They take it because they don't want to walk to the El and then go up to the station. This is true of both disabled and non disabled persons. I am not sure why they feel that way...i'll leave that socialologists. The same is true of train stations, people rather take the snail that is the 32 bus or the 9 bus versus have to walking up the steps or midevale to the r6.

3. Location, Location, Location

Stations look like crap not just because SEPTA doesn't put the money into but because the local hoodlums destroy them. East Falls, a pretty decent city neighborhood, has to work hard as a community to keep the vandals away. What's the possibility of that happening at 52 st or Nicetown? Very slim.

In a perfect world, where SEPTA was both empowered and had the money, SEPTA could be a tool of social change in these neighborhoods. But as we know it's not a perfect world, so for now we have to settle for keeping the current stations open.

[Bethlehem_Branch]

Septa used every last brain cell on the Center City Tunnel, and left nothing else for any other improvements.

This is the greatest tragedy of SEPTA: the decline of big thinking. The iron was hot in the early '70s when SEPTA was under the managment of Wm. McConnon -- where he got his creativity I know not.

I drag this image out when talk turns to the CCM:

http://www.parazz.com/photos/26175899621_16829.jpg

This was McConnon's idea too, "a total transit system":

http://www.parazz.com/photos/41937133477_16829.jpg

In general, from its early commuter rail bias, to the piecemeal acquisition of redundant lines, to the state's viewing the system as poorly managed which in turn established a governance structure that ensured SEPTA's status as a ward of the state, to the failure to implement McConnon's vision, we bear the inheritance of a poorly conceived Authority. The decisions made between the years 1958 (Passenger Service Improvement Corp.) to 1983 basically ensured we would have a dysfunctional, moribund system, and one pathologically addicted to making almost yearly sojourns to Harrisburg hat-in-hand.

[kevikens]

This is a bit off topic but I teach high school and just recently we had a workshop given by our county prosecutors who talked about the NJ Light Rail Riverline being responsible for spreading gang related criminal activities from Camden and Trenton to the suburban communities along that route. The low fares and frequent service have facilitated their criminal enterprises in communities ill equipped to handle this kind of crime. I have no way of knowing if this may be true of SEPTA service out of the "hoods" in Philly but there may be a legitimate comparison here.

[glennk419]

This is a bit off topic but I teach high school and just recently we had a workshop given by our county prosecutors who talked about the NJ Light Rail Riverline being responsible for spreading gang related criminal activities from Camden and Trenton to the suburban communities along that route. The low fares and frequent service have facilitated their criminal enterprises in communities ill equipped to handle this kind of crime. I have no way of knowing if this may be true of SEPTA service out of the "hoods" in Philly but there may be a legitimate comparison here.

I know this is starting to spill way OT but as has been previously stated, criminals will use any and all means available to do their "deeds". Any sort of public transportation can be a vehicle for this, just look at the terror squads that have victimized patrons of the BSL and MFSE in North and West Philly. The Trenton gangs have also spilled across the river without the benefit of public transportation as demonstrated by metal detectors, heavy police presence and in at least one case, a remote video hookup at high school graduations in Bucks County last year.

Either way, while certainly something to be cognizant of, this sort of threat should not be reason for NOT building a rail line or public transit expansion.

[cpontani]

As far as gangs go, you need to separate the issues. Gang violence is a police issue. By saying that gangs take trains (violent, yet environmentally conscious?) is a reason not to build them is just as ridiculous as saying that they drove across the bridge from Trenton, therefore we should ban cars or blow up the bridge.

There have been many comparisons that the MBTA and Septa are similar, as they serve a similar population, and encompass all modes. How is it that the T is better financed? Does it have anything to do that Boston is also the state capital?

[pumpers]

The CSX stacks on the Morrisville line are going from
South Philadephia to the CSX trenton line (ex Reading).
THey can't go the all-CSX route (ex BO from South Philadelphia
to PARK by the museum, then the Reading line to the ex-Reading
Trenton line, because of some clearance issues. So instead
they go over the Arsenal bridge, over the high line to Abrams,
and then reverse to go through Septa -land and then onto the Morrisville line, getting back onto CSX trenton line at Wood(?).

THere is talk of CSX fixing its clearance issues, so it doesn't have
to do this.

My questions is, who knows exactly where the clearance issues
are?

JS