NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

[JimBoylan]

Ptc can and does enforce under 15mph, it does not enforce a positive stop before a bumper, Jim why would you put a signal on a bumper and please tell me where this is actually in place, I'm not disputing what you say but I have never seen or heard of that, if you violate the end of the track you don't have a signal violation you have a crash/derailment.

I think it was Washington Union Station, Upper Level. A Pennsylvania RR dwarf signal hung from the platform roof supports. The theory was that the preceding signal could display Approach (Reduce to Medium Speed, usually defined as 30 m.p.h., approach next signal prepared to stop). Otherwise, the road's design standards might suggest that a Restricting signal be used, which imposes a speed of only 20 or 15 m.p.h. The New York, New Haven & Hartford RR had that same standard about what to display when entering a siding without a signal at its end.
I'm sure that many Brotherhood officials would like to claim that that railroads are looking for any excuse to accuse the employees of additional violations.

[Head-end View]

Around lunch time FOX News was talking about the engineer operating from a position at the back of the push-pull train. I guess they wrongly assumed the engineer was always in the loco cab. Similar mistakes were made by the NYC media after the Spuyten-Duyvil crash. Amazing how clueless they all are. I would have hoped that FOX News would be a little sharper, but I guess not.........

[khecht]

Several other "experts" on other networks were saying the same, apparently unaware of the concept of push pull trains, or that a train in push mode wouldn't have the engineer in the trailing engine. Some of those folks are aviation safety people who are "transportation analysts" that don't know much of anything about railroads.

[MCL1981]

I think it was Washington Union Station, Upper Level. A Pennsylvania RR dwarf signal hung from the platform roof supports...
I'm sure that many Brotherhood officials would like to claim that that railroads are looking for any excuse to accuse the employees of additional violations.

Yep. I walk past them twice a day. There are double red signals (red over red) at the end of at least tracks 1-16 at the bumpers. I asked on here once about that. Of course the answer I got was "so they can ding the engineer for hitting the bumper and running the signal".

[GirlOnTheTrain]

Around lunch time FOX News was talking about the engineer operating from a position at the back of the push-pull train. I guess they wrongly assumed the engineer was always in the loco cab. Similar mistakes were made by the NYC media after the Spuyten-Duyvil crash. Amazing how clueless they all are. I would have hoped that FOX News would be a little sharper, but I guess not.........

I had to explain that concept to someone at work today.

[Silverliner II]

Any regular riders know if usual NJT procedure on this line is to do a safety stop first before pulling down to bumping block?

No, since the trains are not being shoved in from other than the leading cab.

PTC doesn't have the ability to enforce speeds below 15MPH? I find that hard to believe, and certainly you can install a transponder on the entering end of the platform.
Is the timetable speed in the station Restricted or Restricted not to exceed X?

Timetable speed from West End to the east signals of Teminal is 30mph passenger, with any diverting moves in that segment only 15mph passenger.
Timetable speed from the east signals of Terminal interlocking and all depot tracks is 15mph passenger.
Of course, more restrictive signal or cab signal aspects would require slower speeds.

Ptc can and does enforce under 15mph, it does not enforce a positive stop before a bumper, Jim why would you put a signal on a bumper and please tell me where this is actually in place, I'm not disputing what you say but I have never seen or heard of that, if you violate the end of the track you don't have a signal violation you have a crash/derailment.

I don't know what rules are in effect at Hoboken (not my territory), but most terminals are not classed as main tracks, does Hoboken have cab signals? If so reports of 30mph seem unlikely

Amtrak has signals at the bumper blocks at Washington, DC and Boston. They can only display Stop Signal aspects. This is so that a Slow Approach can be displayed on the previous signals permitting entry into the track if it is clear, instead of a Restricting and then having to follow the additional requirements of Restricted Speed therof.

Cab signals and ATC are in service on the entire Hoboken division.

[Limited-Clear]

Thanks for the info and locations on the bumper signals, off to look up more info on those now I've got a starting place

[ThirdRail7]

I think it was Washington Union Station, Upper Level. A Pennsylvania RR dwarf signal hung from the platform roof supports...
I'm sure that many Brotherhood officials would like to claim that that railroads are looking for any excuse to accuse the employees of additional violations.

Yep. I walk past them twice a day. There are double red signals (red over red) at the end of at least tracks 1-16 at the bumpers. I asked on here once about that. Of course the answer I got was "so they can ding the engineer for hitting the bumper and running the signal".

Ptc can and does enforce under 15mph, it does not enforce a positive stop before a bumper, Jim why would you put a signal on a bumper and please tell me where this is actually in place, I'm not disputing what you say but I have never seen or heard of that, if you violate the end of the track you don't have a signal violation you have a crash/derailment.

I don't know what rules are in effect at Hoboken (not my territory), but most terminals are not classed as main tracks, does Hoboken have cab signals? If so reports of 30mph seem unlikely

Amtrak has signals at the bumper blocks at Washington, DC and Boston. They can only display Stop Signal aspects. This is so that a Slow Approach can be displayed on the previous signals permitting entry into the track if it is clear, instead of a Restricting and then having to follow the additional requirements of Restricted Speed therof.

Cab signals and ATC are in service on the entire Hoboken division.

Just to clear up a couple of things, there is no 1 track in Washington Terminal (although there is a 1 West yard). It starts at 7 track. As for the rules in effect, only 17-20 on the upper level have stop signals at the block. Interlocking rules are in effect.

Tracks 7-16 are governed by the following:



98-W1. END OF TRACK INDICATORS

End of track indicators displaying two red lights are installed at the south end of Station

Tracks 7 through 16 to assist crews of arriving trains in locating the ends of these tracks.

Although these indicators display red as their aspect, they do not indicate Stop.


Unless something has changed, interlocking rules are in effect on tracks 1-17 in Hoboken. They are considered main tracks.

[BandA]

Seat belts are an excellent idea. But in this case most passengers would have already unbuckled and stood up to get off.

[swampoodle]

Seat belts are an excellent idea ...

Nope. Terrible idea... On what basis. Have you traveled by train?

[BuddR32]

I agree with a previous poster that this train likely wasnt going more than 15mph, because of ASC.

Also, I'm doubtful that PTC would have prevented this, as if it were installed, the yard and terminal complex would probably not have been a PTC zone, the entry/exit transponders at the entrance to the yard.

Even if the terminal were PTC equipped, it wouldnt enforce a STOP until near the bumper block, which if the train weren't stopping anyway, this PTS would come too late.

What I find particularly aggrivating are the press reports that the train 'went airborne', am I the only one? Th euneducated press is alluding to the fact that the ceiling collapsed, the train went airborne and crashed into the ceiling. The probability that it merely took out the spindly colums is impossible I guess.

[sean3f]

Several other "experts" on other networks were saying the same, apparently unaware of the concept of push pull trains, or that a train in push mode wouldn't have the engineer in the trailing engine. Some of those folks are aviation safety people who are "transportation analysts" that don't know much of anything about railroads.

CNN had a former NJT Conductor on who explained the push-pull concept. He also gave some details about how the train would have approached the station (speeds, interlockings). HE speculated something happened in the cab just prior to the stop, such as a heart attack and safety system did not have enough time to react.

[CentralValleyRail]

regarding the restoration of service one thing I will say is NJT got back up and running quickly. I was at Radburn today at 4:30. They announced that after 4 it would be a weekend schedule. Was not really sure if train 66 was going to show since technically it originates at 3:20. 3 minutes before 4:40 "we regret to inform you 66 is cancelled" next train is 4:57. No big deal 4:57 shows up a few minutes late. We get on go to Secaucus no issues there at all wasn't any more crowded than a normal weekday in fact I think it was less crowded. Hopped on a train to New York. NY Penn wasn't too bad Ethier.
So YOU WOULD THINK "wow NJT really handled this well" and now for the coming home.

Talked to someone NJT employee in penn station who said they're trying to keep to the weeknight schedule.
Checked DV around 11:30 saw that 12:34 Montclair is still showing. Got to NYP at 12:15 no 12:34 on the NJT boards and no NJT personal to be found. Thinking looks like gonna take the 1:22 to SEC and get uber home. Go over to Amtrak and the 12:34 is on the Amtrak board sure enough the train is there and is on track 4. Get into Secaucus 12:45 for the 12:50 BCL to port jervis. (Note an hour earlier DV was showing the train as delayed track F.) Not anywhere on the boards. I'm thinking hmm must be some issue with the DV boards. Go down to track F nothing shows. But it shows the 1:42 main line as going to port jervis. (Wtf)? 1:00 am rolls around and all of a sudden a train comes but it's over on track G so we sprint up the stairs and come back down train 3 car set which usually is 49 blasts by and doesn't stop until it hits a red signal past the station. So now we're thinking hmm maybe it's gonna back up for some reason onto track F. Nice thought off it goes into the moonlight. Go back upstairs and informed by personal no trains up the Bergen county line. Off to uber we go And there was quite a few others now doing the same thing.

Amazing considering the train went by that they OOS it or what? And then decide to run the 1:42 up to port jervis. Apparently there was a train coming in from port jervis that was gonna turn around. the fact that they left BCL riders stranded with no info nothing?
Here's the problem I get that the service is way out of line obviously. But the lack of communication and information in this day and age is mind blowing.

Look at the site now.

Shuttle train service for Dover - hackettsown (hmm should I show up when I feel like it and hope a train appears)???

Shuttle train MSU-Dover (same stuff)

Modified weekend schedule ? Wtf? What are you modifying. How about some info?

It's time to shakeup the organization. And i didn't even touch my thoughts on the crash! I'll let that play out without speculating publicly here.

RIP to the poor Brazilian women who lost her life in an incident that should've never happened.

[STrRedWolf]

Friday service has been posted:
http://www.njtransit.com/sa/sa_servlet. ... iceId=2469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In short:

• Diesel shuttle service to first electric service station (Summit, MSU, Dover).
• Main/Bergen/Passaic Valley/Port Jervis service on modified weekend schedule to Secaucus Junction.
• Alternate shuttle service to Metro North Hudson line for Port Jervis and Passaic Valley NY customers.
• PATH and Light Rail back on full service.\

[glennk419]

Ptc can and does enforce under 15mph, it does not enforce a positive stop before a bumper, Jim why would you put a signal on a bumper and please tell me where this is actually in place, I'm not disputing what you say but I have never seen or heard of that, if you violate the end of the track you don't have a signal violation you have a crash/derailment.

I don't know what rules are in effect at Hoboken (not my territory), but most terminals are not classed as main tracks, does Hoboken have cab signals? If so reports of 30mph seem unlikely

Check out the picture on page 5 of this thread. There are fixed aspect red signals at end of track in Hoboken. Track 0 in Suburban Station Philadelphia also has red signals at EOT, I assume the other stub tracks do as well.