Redundant Trains

[trainbrain]

I looked at the schedule for the line closest to where I live (Main/Bergen/Port Jervis) and found that there are some trains that run very close to each other, serving the same stops.

During the morning rush, trains 52, 1156, 1158, and 54 make similar stops and run close to each other. 52 stops at Mahwah and both Ramseys, only 10 minutes ahead of 1156. It gets in 18 minutes ahead of 1156 because it goes nonstop to SEC after Ramsey. 1156 also makes the same stops (between Suffern and Ridgewood, except route 17) as 1158 which runs 18 minutes after it does, but gets in 24 minutes earlier because 1158 is fully local on the Bergen Line. 1158 actually skips Route 17 while 54 stops there, because they figured with an express going there, no one would want to take the local.

I believe 1158 used to be 1258 and only ran from Waldwick, but they extended it to Suffern for whatever reason. To my knowledge, the set used for it deadheads out to Suffern, so there's gotta be some other reason this trip exists other than equipment rotations.

There are also some Port Jervis local trains that are completely redundant with shorter local runs. 62 is redundant with 1170 between Suffern and Ridgewood on weekdays, and 75 and 81 are redundant with 1719 and 1735 respectively in the same location. These trains could easily be made express in those areas and save commuters at least 15 minutes, with essentially 0 cost.

[ebtmikado]

What about people who board trains west of Port Jervis, and go to a station other than in the New York terminal area?

[trainbrain]

62 runs before 1170, so passengers could just transfer at Suffern to access local stations.

What is unusual for 75 and 81 is that the Port Jervis train runs before the Suffern train. On most trips, the Port Jervis train is an express and is set to catch up with the local before it to allow customers from local stops to transfer and access the Port Jervis Line stations. Main Line local 1723 and Port Jervis express 77 interact this way. 1723 leaves Hoboken at 3:25pm, and 77 leaves at 4:04pm. 77 catches up with 1723 but does not overtake it, arriving at Suffern 10 minutes after 1723 does. Customers can board 1723 at the local stations, then transfer at Suffern to 77 if they want to go further. 1727 and 79 also interact this way.

59 and 61 also are redundant west of Harriman. 59 leaves only 12 minutes before 61, and runs nonstop to Harriman after SEC. 61 stops at Route 17, and then all New York stops. My guess is that ridership on 61 west of Harriman is minimal since all it's really doing is picking up anyone who missed 59. Most of the ridership would get off at Route 17, Suffern, Sloatsburg, or Tuxedo. The fact that these trains run so close to each other is probably why 59 doesn't operate on the day before some holiday weekends, while 49 is extended to Port Jervis (operating as 99) on those days. Fewer people are riding during rush hour on those days, and 61 and 57 can split up handling the passengers that normally take 59.

I'm not entirely sure how the rotations work on days where 99 runs and 59 doesn't. Normally everything 51 and after (except 59) is a finish upon arriving at Port Jervis, and 59 becomes 68. 49 terminates at Middletown on days when 59 is running, and then the set deadheads back to Hoboken. 99 is the same thing as 49, but extended to Port Jervis. My guess is that the 3 car set normally used on 49, is replaced by the set normally used on 51, 55, or 61 (the rush hour 5 car sets), and is a finish in Port Jervis upon arrival instead of deadheading back to Hoboken. The NJT set normally used on 59 would operate on either 51, 55, or 61, and then be used to operate 68, as it normally does.

[ebtmikado]

Famous phrase from riders and advocates: "One seat ride"

[trainbrain]

But analyze the costs and benefits. Most people are going to either Hoboken, or SEC to transfer to PSNY. Very few are traveling only between local stops on the local Port Jervis trains like 45, 62, etc. It's better to have the 25 minute shorter ride for the vast majority of riders going to Hoboken/NYC than to have the one seat ride at local stops and a train that gives those going all the way to Manhattan a scenic tour of suburban NJ. The only reason any Port Jervis trains go local in NJ is because they need a train to serve the local stops, and there isn't one that is coming out of Suffern or Waldwick to do that job in the given time. 62 is fully local, making all stops on the Main Line, but it doesn't have to stop at all between Suffern and Ridgewood. 1170 already makes all those stops. Unless another local train to/from Waldwick was added, 62 would still need to make local stops on the Main Line, because there's no other train in that time slot to do so. If you look at the schedule and see how 42 (first train of the day) is scheduled (express between Suffern and Ridgewood, all stops on Bergen Line), that's what 62, 75, and 81 could do. All the other Port Jervis locals (70, 74, 76, 78, 82, 45, 67, 69/41) are not redundant.

[ThirdRail7]

I just want to make sure that I'm understanding your post.

You're actually complaining that certain train stations have a variety of choices since multiple trains service the stations?

You're actually complaining that the same passengers have a one seat ride?

You're actually complaining that frequent service that is offered (which is often attractive to passengers) should be converted to less rides for some and a transfer so a few people may save up to 15 minutes?

You're actually complaining that with frequent service offered, the ridership may be evenly spaced instead of every clustering up on locals or express service?

Hmmm. Here's someone else with a major first world problem:

[trainbrain]

No, I'm pointing out that there are some instances where there are very closely spaced off peak trains, when there likely isn't enough ridership for both to be evenly used. In areas where there are two locals serving the same stations within 10 minutes, off peak, it is likely that people will mostly take the first one, with the second one only picking up passengers that missed the first train. If you look at the weekend schedule on the Main/Bergen line, the schedule is set up so that all Main Line trains turn at Suffern, and all Bergen Line trains turn at Waldwick. On inbounds, the Suffern train gets to Waldwick, Ho-Ho-Kus, and Ridgewood before the Waldwick train does. Passengers going all the way to NYC (almost everyone) just takes the first train that comes. On outbounds, the Waldwick train departs before the Suffern train, so passengers going to stations served by both typically take the Waldwick train.

I'm not saying anything should be changed on the local trains for the weekend schedule. I'm just pointing out the pattern that you get when you have multiple trains serving the same station in a short period of time. People just take the first train that comes.

In the case where 62 and 1170 are redundant, 62 is the first train. Most passengers between Suffern and Ridgewood will take that train instead of 1170. Nothing wrong with that. The trains go to the same place, and do it in about the same time, so most people will just take the first train that comes. That being said, the passengers getting on at those stations and going all the way to NYC or Hoboken, which is the vast majority, don't care if their train originated in Suffern or Port Jervis, or whether it goes to the Main or Bergen Line. Meanwhile, the people coming from the Port Jervis Line stations do care if their train is local or express. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Port Jervis Line riders want a quicker ride to Hoboken or NYC, and don't want a scenic tour of suburban NJ to make the same exact stops as another train 10 minutes later. That's why the majority of Port Jervis Line trains are express. With your logic, all those trains would be local so that few riders can get a one seat ride to intermediate stations.

[EuroStar]

You forget one very big item: money. Metro-North needs to pay extra for the trains you are talking about to run express. I would assume that Metro-North has looked into the accounting and has figured out that the added ridership due to expressing off-peak trains does not justify the increased expense.

Also other problems tend to occur. Take your example with 62 and 1170. You cannot express 62 between Ridgewood and Secaucus because there is no other Main line train for an hour before and after. Are you proposing to express 62 between Suffern and Ridgewood? Now you run into the problem that you lost the service from say Allendale to Clifton. To remedy that your express train will need to wait in Ridgewood for 1170 to arrive and for say 2 people to go up and down the stairs in order to transfer. You say, let 1170 run first and 62 chase it. Does not work great either, now your friend from Tuxedo cannot get to Radburn unless 1170 waits until 62 arrives at Ridgewood. On top of that you loose the expressing benefit because 62 will be getting restricted signals all the way down to Ridgewood due to 1170 being in front of it and slowed down due to stopping at every station. Overall any time one of the trains is off its schedule by even couple of minutes you will be accruing delays to both trains especially due to the transferring Passengers at Ridgewood. Operationally it is better to just run them the way they run now. You could of course run a third train and solve all issues of any to any station passengers, but a third train costs money to run and at this point is not worth it given the ridership at that time.

Furthermore notice that there are practically no two-way timed transfers anywhere on the commuter railroads in the NYC area. That is train A and train B arrive at a station and then some people from A transfer to B and some people from B transfer to A. Reason is if one train is late, then both become late and you get a lot of late trains behind them too. What the commuter railroads practice is a one-way transfer. Train A arrives, people transferring to B get off, but train A does not wait for train B to arrive. Nobody is transferring from B to A. People willing to transfer from stations where B comes from to stations where A goes to are covered by alternative train transfer combinations.

In fact 62 and 1170 are a good example of one way transfer. Someone from Tuxedo could get to Radburn by switching at Ridgewood (or Suffer, or any station in between), but 62 does not wait for 1170 to arrive. Trying to express 62 would require a two-way transfer in Ridgewood with associated delays to all trains or running a third train. All transfers at Secaucus are also one-way transfers. Suffern also sees a few one-way transfers. I knew of someone who used to take 1165 from Ridgewood and transfer to 55 at Suffern on the way to Harriman.

What you see in the schedule is about as good as it could ever be without more money. There are many considerations which go into making the schedule and oversights of the type you are targeting are very rare. I do not recall one, but it is almost a given that one has happened on some NJTransit line at some point in the past. We are all humans.

Also claims that people always take the first train are incorrect. On weekends at times when there are both Main and Bergen line trains, most people from Waldwick, Ho-ho-kus and Ridgewood actually take the second one (the Bergen line) because the ride is a few minutes shorter.

[trainbrain]

Oops, didn't think of all the possible transfer combinations. IMO, the gold standard for setting up transfers to allow one to go to any station on the two lines is how 72, 1708, and 1858 interact. 72 is the Port Jervis train going express in NJ, 1708 is the Main Line local from Suffern, and 1858 is the Bergen Line local from Waldwick. If one needs to go Harriman to Radburn, they'd take 72 to Suffern, 1708 to Ridgewood, and 1858 to Radburn. 2 transfers, but they're well timed and it works.

Scheduling/operations is the most interesting part of railroading for me, so that's why I always post about it. I ran some different scheduling scenarios to try to fill in some big gaps between trains, and make all the Port Jervis trains express. There is a way, by adding an extra Suffern round trip and eliminating two Waldwick-Suffern deadhead moves, to make 45 and 62 express.

I wonder if there's any way to find out the average ridership on the Port Jervis Line trains, from the MNCR stops. On weekdays, my guess is that 52 and 57 are the highest, and 68 and 41 are the lowest. On weekends, my guess is that 74 and 77 are the highest, and 82 and 69 are the lowest. This data would also show whether the train being local or express in NJ affects ridership the way I think it does.

[EuroStar]

You might be able to get some information about the ridership by filing FOIA or its state equivalent law requests (both in NJ for NJT and in NY for Metro-North). I have come across quarterly/annual ridership reports by NJT that were obtained through FOIA. They contained ridership per each station. I imagine ridership per train also exists somewhere. While certain information about railroad operations cannot be made public, I have hard time imagining ridership per train qualifying for secret treatment.

[trainbrain]

There are actually two way transfers in the NJT system. Weekend Montclair line trains wait for Morristown Line trains at Newark Broad Street to allow people to transfer between the Hoboken and NY trains.

Now, depending on which station you're coming from and going to, you have these transfer scenarios.

Dover-Newark Broad to PSNY: One seat ride to PSNY
Dover-Newark to Hoboken: Ride Midtown Direct train to Newark, transfer to Montclair line train to Hoboken.
Gladstone-Summit to PSNY: Gladstone Branch train to Summit, transfer to Midtown Direct train to PSNY.
Gladstone-Summit to Hoboken: Gladstone Branch train to Summit, transfer to Midtown Direct train to Newark, transfer at Newark to Montclair line train to Hoboken.
Bay Street-Newark to PSNY: Montclair line train to Newark, transfer to Midtown Direct train to PSNY.
Bay Street-Newark to Hoboken: One seat ride to Hoboken.

If Gladstone Branch trains ran all the way to Hoboken as locals, they'd be redundant with midtown direct trains from Summit to Newark, but passengers would have a one seat ride to both terminals at those stations, and passengers at Gladstone Branch stations would lose the double transfer. If the Gladstone Branch train ran before the Midtown Direct train, passengers from Gladstone Branch stations could transfer to it with a one way transfer. If the two way transfer at Newark was made into a one way transfer with the Montclair line train coming first, passengers at those stations could transfer to the Midtown Direct train to PSNY, and passengers going to Hoboken wouldn't be delayed waiting for the other train. The issue you get here is that the person coming from stations on the Morristown line past Summit can't get to Hoboken, because the trains that go there ran before the Midtown Direct train for one way transfers to PSNY. You could shift the transfer point for passengers going to Hoboken from Dover-Summit to Secaucus, but that only works if there's a lower level train coming after the Midtown Direct train does.

[EuroStar]

I forgot about the weekend Montclair trains. They have the two-way transfer with the Dover-NYP trains. It is usually done across the platform as opposed to making people go down and up stairs. To some extent it ended up the way it is by chance as opposed to grand design. Years ago there was no Montclair service on weekends. There was a Hoboken-Broad Street shuttle that met every other Dover train at Broad Street giving the Morris&Essex line weekend access to Hoboken. I think that mode of operation was put in place after service cuts made the Gladstone trains not go to Hoboken any more, but turn at Summit. The weekend Montclair service was established after a vocal citizen got some elected officials in Montclair and possibly some of the other towns to talk to NJTransit about weekend service. It was a "no cost" extension as the Hoboken-Broad Street shuttle was extended to Bay Street. The trainset and the crew were sitting at Broad Street anyway, so making them go to Bay Street and back was really a minor increase in electricity cost or fuel burn (those shuttles are not always electric). Note that Bay Street was chosen because going to MSU and back takes too long to be in time at Broad Street to make the connection in the opposite direction. The existing interlocking at Bay Street was a plus too. Even though ridership has been quote good for weekend service, NJTransit never considered adding a second shuttle to make it every hour service or extending it to MSU as both will require extra crews.

With your interest in scheduling, try designing a minimum cost weekend extension to MSU that keeps sensible clock face schedule for the Morris&Essex line. You will quickly see that keeping the number of extra sets and crews operating low while designing a "good" schedule is hard.

[trainbrain]

On my home line, the goal would be to strategically add trains that fill in large scheduling gaps and make Port Jervis trains express. One Suffern trip could be added to make both 45 and 62 express. The train would need to leave in 45's slot, making all stops to Suffern (45 skips Wesmont, Garfield, and Plauderville). Upon arrival at Suffern, it would turn and become 1116.

The train that currently turns to 1116 is 1309, which deadheads from Ridgewood to Suffern. That train would instead turn at Waldwick and go back as 1168, which is now 1151's return to Hoboken. It is a deadhead to Waldwick and revenue to Hoboken.

1151's EQ would return to Hoboken as a new run making the same stops as 62 at the same time.

1109 is redundant with 1153 from Ridgewood to Suffern, but it is needed because it turns to 1170. It can be cut to Waldwick, and so can 1170, because 62's replacement as a local would be making the same stops.

Current turns:

1309-1116
1151-1168
1109-1170

Turns under new scheduling scenario

45 replacement-1116
1309-1168 (turn at Waldwick)
1151-62 replacement
1109-1170 (both cut to Waldwick, renumbered to reflect that)

45 would be run later so that it runs in it's current slot west of Suffern, but express east of Suffern.

62 would run exactly 2 hours later than 58, and run express after Suffern.