My dream for a mega-transportation-complex in Secaucus NJ

[CPSK]

Fact: Amtrak and NJT need to get more trains under the Hudson.
Fact: Amtrak and NJT need a new Penn Station.
Fact: NJT needs a new bus terminal to replace the one in midtown.

Here's my dream plan:

1. Build a new "transportation complex" in Secaucus NJ (replaces the current Secaucus Junction). This complex would include rail and bus stations, as well as plenty of retail space. Surely a better model than the "American Dream" a couple of miles away.
2. Dig a total of 6 new tunnels (or fewer tunnels if double-track), for a total of 6 tracks under the Hudson.
A) 4 of the tunnels or tracks would be subway lines connecting to the A-C-E and #7 lines.
B) 2 tunnels or tracks would carry NJT and Amtrak trains.
C) Include capability for some tunnels to carry both commuter trains and subway trains - to handle emergencies, such as closing of the old Amtrak tunnels.

3. Run all tracks to the new transportation complex - BUT - create a 2 or 3-track bypass for express trains not stopping at the station - unlike the current Secaucus Junction station.
4. Build a loop connection from the Bergen County/Main Line to the NEC just west of the new complex, to provide a one-seat ride for those commuters.
5. Replace the Portal drawbridge with a new 4-track non-moveable bridge.
6. Buses to/from New Jersey, and long distance buses that pass through New Jersey would use the new complex, while buses that currently do not cross the Hudson would continue to use the old terminal.
7. The current midtown bus terminal would be fully refurbished.
8. The current Penn station would remain the terminal for the LIRR, but at the same time, LIRR trains would be able to pass under the Hudson to the new complex.

How are we going to pay for all of this?
Gas tax, Federal grants, bonds, and perhaps even create a public corporation to build and run the entire complex, with stock trading on the NYSE or NASDAQ.
In addition, there would be lots of retail space at the new complex, which would help to pay for the cost of building it.

CP

[Backshophoss]

That's a tall order,as that station is hemmed in by industrial parks and was built as a transfer station with no known
outside public access points.
The way Gov. Christie is running the state,this is a dream that will not happen,he barely supports NJT as it is Now.

[CPSK]

Looks like there's some room in the SE quad of the rail crossing. Problem is that its wetlands, and may be far too small. I've always thought of Secaucus as nothing but wetlands, but I can see now looking at Google Earth that it's anything but.

It's too bad that the U.S. doesn't spend more money on rail, and less on highways. If we're ever going to save the planet from catastrophic climate change, we'll need to make a major shift from automobile to mass transit. Electric powered trains have to be the most efficient method of moving people - and especially green if that electricity comes mainly from renewable sources.

Building the complex on the west side of Manhattan would work, but then we need to build a couple new highway tubes for the buses. In either case, I would love to see a multi-mode transportation center.
Perhaps just expanding Secaucus Junction along with a couple new rail tunnels and a new Portal bridge would work. That way, at least some of the buses, and some of those who now drive their cars into the city might be more likely to use it. That said, I still think it would work best if the subways were brought into NJ.

I forgot to include park and ride lots for the new complex. That would of course be a major requirement.

I have heard that the lower level of the GWB was originally planned to carry subway trains. I don't know if that is true or not.

[Backshophoss]

From the few times I've run the lower level of the GWB,there's space for tracks,but the Toll Plaza,and that 1st Manhattan exit
screws up any access to the Subway or any land access on the NJ side.

[EuroStar]

Unfortunately this won't happen ever. The political process plus the current abundance of cheap oil for the next decade or so will see to that for our lifetimes (and I actually have 30+ years of commuting left).

My prediction of what would actually happen is:
1. The new double tracked Portal Bridge North by 2027.
2. Two new tunnels into the existing Penn Station by 2035.
3. Quad tracking Secaucus-Newark by 2042 including Portal Bridge South.
4. Various parking lot additions for 2,000-3,000 cars around the existing Secaucus Station.

NYC government, private parties and Community Boards will ensure Penn South will never happen with endless lawsuits. The same entities will tangle the Port Authority Bus Terminal to the point where it will be rebuilt in place with some extension over the empty air rights over the entry to the Lincoln Tunnel. NYC and the Jersey interests will fight it for about 7 years before Jersey will throw in the towel and agree to cap the number of busses entering Manhattan through the Lincoln Tunnel to the number at the time. That will eventually cause the increase in the bus traffic dropping off people at Secaucus for the trip to NYC -- most likely you will observe that by about 2030. At about that time you will get some major facelift at Penn -- probably a combination of elimination of the stupid theater under MSG plus a small southern portion of the post office being added to the waiting area and the old postal platform put on passenger service for NJT. By 2025 Metro-North will be running two trains per hour into Penn from the New Heaven Line (there will not be demand for more). LIRR would have cut the frequencies to Penn by about 30%, while overall increasing its trains by about 25% due to the completion of the station under Grand Central. Hudson Line might see trains into Penn by about 2045. Without Penn South the Bergen Loop will not happen, but after the quadtracking the Raritan Line will serve Penn full time including peak hour and weekends -- pencil that in again for 2042.

This is not what should happen (a lot more should happen), but in my opinion is what is most likely to happen.

[EuroStar]

I have heard that the lower level of the GWB was originally planned to carry subway trains. I don't know if that is true or not.

Yes, the lower level was planned to carry trains. At this point it is clear that this would never happen. The traffic on the bridge is such that you cannot remove two lanes to use for two tracks. The bridge has become such a vital corridor that you cannot get all the required truck traffic supplying NYC and Long Island with fewer lanes. Furthermore there is no good place for the trains to go on the NJ side other than stay along the highway towards Hackensack and then Paterson. You cannot easily connect to any of the existing north-south lines without using eminent domain on large swats of residential neighborhoods -- that just won't happen.

[CPSK]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with EuroStar on the time frame for major improvements/additions, for the very reasons he stated. So we will continue to drive our gasoline fueled automobiles until there isn't so much oil left, or what is cheap runs out, leaving only the more expensive options.
My post was just a dream, as I don't really believe that in 100 years we would ever see anything so aggressive taking place for rail transit.

The sad thing is that, even if we had to start all over and build bran-new systems from scratch today, we still wouldn't get what is most efficient or cost effective. At least not so long as politics continues to have the final word on what is and is not done.

[jackintosh11]

Instead of making 4 tunnels for subway use, just make 2 and run both lines through them, and either have retractable/extendable platforms to account for the difference in train width. Build extra commuter rail tunnels instead.

[CPSK]

I like the idea of the multi-use tunnels and platform you suggested. But as I see it, the planned 2 tunnel/track expansion specified by Amtrak's Gateway project is not enough. What happens when the two existing tunnels become completely unusable. Back to two tunnels/tracks.

[time]

Unfortunately this won't happen ever. <SNIP>

I think you're right on with scope and dates. Unfortunately.

[CLamb]

I have heard that the lower level of the GWB was originally planned to carry subway trains. I don't know if that is true or not.

Yes, the lower level was planned to carry trains. At this point it is clear that this would never happen. The traffic on the bridge is such that you cannot remove two lanes to use for two tracks. The bridge has become such a vital corridor that you cannot get all the required truck traffic supplying NYC and Long Island with fewer lanes. Furthermore there is no good place for the trains to go on the NJ side other than stay along the highway towards Hackensack and then Paterson. You cannot easily connect to any of the existing north-south lines without using eminent domain on large swats of residential neighborhoods -- that just won't happen.

No need to remove two lanes. There is space for the unbuilt tracks in the middle between the eastbound and westbound lanes. One thing that I'd like to know is what sort of load on the tracks the bridge was designed for. They are just referred to as "mass transit" tracks.

[ExCon90]

Good question. Back when the bridge was designed, subway cars weighed a lot less than they do now.

[michaelk]

I like the idea of the multi-use tunnels and platform you suggested. But as I see it, the planned 2 tunnel/track expansion specified by Amtrak's Gateway project is not enough. What happens when the two existing tunnels become completely unusable. Back to two tunnels/tracks.

i always just assumed they'd do it like many highway bridge widenings. Built 2 new tunnels and shift all traffic to them. Close exsiting tunnels and rebuild them. Once the originals are rebuilt you finally have 4. ...probably 10+ years after construction starts...