Penn Station Shutdown Plans

[SemperFiSep11]

It seems incredibly apparant that no one here, in the National Guard, in the NYPD, and certainly not in the Republican or Democratic Party have any clue how to deal with terrorism and this whole topic proves it.

What will plainclothes people on trains do? Search everyone's bag for a bomb? Yeah, the world has tried police states many times and they seem to, for the most part, have failed.

National Guard troops? Here's a great idea. Men and women with M-16A2 rifles, with no training in counter terrorism, and no purpose! What are they to do with those rifles? Shoot a suspected bomber? That'll be great. If we give orders like that, let's suspect 9 or 10 dead dark skinned people shot for being dark skinned and nothing else. A National Guardsman is part of the broad sword referred to as the United States Army. We cannot do with a broadsword what needs to be done with a scalpel.

We live in a free country. Sometimes bad things will happen. That is called the price of freedom. That is what our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines are paying right now in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the rest of those dump-holes we're in. All of this cry-baby whining over terrorism needs to stop before we end up having to check in and out of our own homes since that might help save "just one life." I've been to Israel. I know what it's like getting on a bus not knowing if you're going to be getting off. But somehow, despite living like that, they remain free people and don't implement feel-good political solutions to problems (such as shutting down NYP). They do what the British did in WWII. Stiff upper lip and all, old chap. Until we learn that, we might as well get used to our train stations being closed and getting probed by people who couldn't even graduate high school much less spell the name of thier job...Security Screener.

Off of the political thing, shutting down Penn Station seems sort of counter productive in that thousands of people will be at these conventions and will no doubt want an easy way to get there. I'm sure the Republicans will be more than happy to have Jeeves drive them in thier expensive SUVs, but perhaps the Democrats, since they "feel our pain" (whatever), will realize that since they are populists, they should do what is right for the people.

[transit383]

What will plainclothes people on trains do? Search everyone's bag for a bomb? Yeah, the world has tried police states many times and they seem to, for the most part, have failed.

In the news report, it was stated that one plan was to have police officers board trains at outlying stations and inspect them on their way into NYP (if it wasn't shut down). I don't know how much this would prove, as it would take a significant amount of time and people to search the trains. Searching the trains alone would take long enough, I can't even imagine how much time it would take to search people's bags, even if it was just random spot checks.

On another note, I looked through the NY Post today and didn't see anything regarding the Penn Station Shutdown. Interesting....

[rvrrhs]

Whoops...now if the Acela Express had steps and trapdoors, it could be diverted into Hoboken Terminal from the south (other Amtrak trains can still go in there); and if it had third-rail contact shoes, it could have been diverted into GCT from the north (no other Amtrak electric motor is so equipped either). And a whoopsie on NJT's part insofar as not rebuilding the Arrow IIIs with the automatic transformer-tap changing capability...(or should we blame that on Amtrak not getting the money to convert the former PRR to 25kV 60Hz?)

Well, at least with NJT (and Amtrak south/west of NYC), trains can terminate at Secaucus and passengers can transfer to Hoboken/PATH (or take PATH from Newark).

[Ken W2KB]

Both the D and R conventions have the delegates staying at area hotels. Both use charter buses, vans and limos to ferry the delegates. Guests with passes to the conventions are generally staff and/or lobbiests who stay at the same hotels as delegates. Few R's or D's would consider taking mass transit to the convention. Those that take the train to NYC or Boston will arrive before the conventions starts and the station is closed.

[rvrrhs]

SemperFiSep11: Off of the political thing, shutting down Penn Station seems sort of counter productive in that thousands of people will be at these conventions and will no doubt want an easy way to get there. I'm sure the Republicans will be more than happy to have Jeeves drive them in thier expensive SUVs, but perhaps the Democrats, since they "feel our pain" (whatever), will realize that since they are populists, they should do what is right for the people.

#1. could the "have Jeeves drive them" Republicans be glad that this would cut down on the number of (presumably Democrat) protesters expected to show up?

#2. for my job, my client is NYC & Company, the convention & visitors bureau. I'm willing to bet they aren't happy with this cockamamie idea, as they are hoping the convention will draw tens of thousands of visitors to the city (delegates, lobbyists, spectators, and protesters). That's why they fought against the GOP idea to house their delegates on a cruise ship.

[n01jd1]

I also heard that there is no plans to close NY Penn Station during the Republican National convention while the Secret Service is insisting that North station in Boston be closed for the entire week of of the Democratic National Convention. Gee is Bush trying to gain votes in Boston??? heh heh heh

I just heard an excerpt from an interview with Mayor Bloomberg and he said that there were no plans to shut NYP for the entire convention. He said the most he expected was for a possible cessation of service when the President spoke onstage at MSG.

[efin98]

The whole deal is paranoia and overkill in both cities. Rather than actually committing the neccessary troops, police, and agents to cover the stations they would rather just shut the areas down.
The worst part is that both cities could handle the conventions in convention centers but they would rather not "inconvenience" their delegates by not having a clear view of the stage . Heck the people of Massachusetts just built a new convention center just to lure the bloody convention and they won't use it.

Look on the bright side, at least New Jersey Transit and the LIRR have terminals that could probly handle the trains and bustitution, Boston doesn't.

[drewh]

I can't even imagine how much time it would take to search people's bags, even if it was just random spot checks.

Not without a search warrant you don't. It would take a new federal law to allow for the random search. And that just brings us one step closer to the police state.

Airports are controlled by the Feds and no one is subject to random search until you agree to go thru the security check point.

[drewh]

Again I ask why the evnt is not moved to either the Javits Centre, Yankee Stadium, or Giants Stadium??

Why does it have to be at MSG where the consider the station underneath a threat??

[Irish Chieftain]

Yankee and Giants Stadia are out because they are not covered, of course. No use having a parade that can be rained on, whether with rainwater or (heaven forbid) ballistic weapons from aircraft...

As for Javits Center, that's a size issue, I would think.

[efin98]

Actually I think it's more of a "convenience" issue with Penn Station since it's closer to the major hotels and attractions than the Javits Center. The Javits Center can handle it, it's large enough and has enough specialized rooms to handle the "closed door" meetings between delegates. You would think that since MSG has subways on either side, two dozen tracks and platforms, and congested streets encircling it that they would move it to the place that has much more limited access. Guess they would rather go for the headlines rather than the obvious.

Politicians, can't live with them, can't vote them out of office.

[drewh]

Since the all take buses and limos anyway, I will still think that Javits would be more convenient. Less congested midtown streets to deal with for parking/pickup/drop off.

After all its good enough for all the other conventions all year round.

What about CO airlines Arena - its coverred right?? Just not sure on the size??

[transit383]

What about CO airlines Arena - its coverred right?? Just not sure on the size??

And there's a good chance there will never be rail service there, so the rail shutdown issue will never arise if it is used in the future.

[rvrrhs]

I speak from convention industry knowledge....

Shea/Yankee/Giants stadiums: if you guessed "not enclosed," you're right.

Continental Arena: too far from midtown Manhattan

Javits: too small (no large auditorium). The Javits has more square footage for than MSG (by a lot) for trade shows, exhibtions, and that sort of thing, but nowhere near the theater seating capacity.

So, MSG is the ideal situation: an enclosed auditorium near midtown Manhattan with seating for about 20, 000. And they have a separate smaller space, The Theater at Madison Square Garden, and an exhibit hall called The Expo Center, for on-site breakout sessions.

Convenience has nothing to do with it. Most of the delegates' hotels are roughly the same distance from both Javits & MSG. Most of the major hotels are above 42nd Street, with a few in lower Manhattah, except for the Hotel Pennsylvania and The New Yorker, which are both across the street from MSG.

As to the smaller committee meetings, etc., those are done in suites and small meeting rooms at the conventioneers' hotels...a major reason the city fought the cruise ship plan, since not only would the hotels have lost out on sleeping room income, but on meeting room income as well.

One wonders, though, why the Republicans chose an overwhelmingly Democrat city for the convention?

[JPhurst]

I work across the street from Penn Station and Madison Square Garden. My brother worked in midtown in 1992 during the Democratic National Convention and said it was impossible to get around the area. Crossing the street meant sort of just moving along in a flow with the mob of people surrounding you. Now after 9/11, I cannot imagine how it is going to be. And I don't intend to find out, as I plan to take a week's vacation then and get away from the madness.

I take the PATH to work, so my commute wouldn't be affected by a Penn Station shutdown except that I'm sure the trains will be even more overpacked then they already are. But I cannot see how Midtown will manage with Penn Station shutting down. It will be a nightmare.