PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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Don31
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by Don31 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:55 pm

FRN9 wrote:
1. The plan to expand Newark Airport involve removing parts of all 3 terminals. Obviously this is a major project and while they are doing it, it would be possible to build PATH integration at the same time. The PATH can be tunneled underneath the AOA as part of these renovations. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/nyreg ... wanted=all

2. Maybe the problem with the Union County Light Rail initiative was that it wasn't ambitious enough and didn't have the shared station with RVL and mall/parking idea.

3. If some local developer would make a lot of money on the project (and give some of it in donations to politicians), then the Christie administration could squash any local opposition. There would be plenty of local jobs at the mall.
1. Correct. The proposed third runway, which is at least 30 years away, would require a major reconfiguration of the airport and PATH could be integrated at that time. And technically speaking, anything is possible if you throw enough money at something. But to cut-and-cover across an active airfield will never happen.

2. I think the problem was that its projected ridership wasn't high enough to support a cost-benefit analysis.

3. Are you really that naive? I'm not going to dignify this last point with a response, sorry.
You can't fix stupid, but stupid eventually fixes itself.

25Hz
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by 25Hz » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:37 pm

FRN9 wrote:My point is that this is a more practical idea than extending the R train to Staten Island.
Creating an unrealistic alternative to an all ready unrealistic idea does not make it more practical or more likely to happen.

What some have (including myself) suggested, is to modify the narrows bridge to carry some form of rail service that would connect to the D, N, or LIRR in brooklyn to SIRR.

Using PA money, fleet, personnel, and planning resources for some giant weird SIRR-newark-jersey city-manhattan route is a waste and unrealistic from multiple angles.

I really like HBLR, i'd like if it had a loop station somewhere on the staten island end of the bayonne bridge, which intersected with a saint george-elizabeth service. I think that makes more sense. You can ride HBLR to exchange place, pavonia/newport, or hoboken to access PATH, and if you are going to bayonne, taking the north shore-elizabeth connecting service makes more sense than going all the way up through newark when you then turn back south again at exchange place, especially if the schedules were made so the trains met.

But, HBLR needs expansion IN NJ first, plus you need to figure out what the north shore line-elizabeth situation is with new bridge etc etc, plus we don't even have PATH to rail link yet!!!!

I love out-of-the-box thinking, however this ewr-sirr bit is all firmly in the realm of foamy fantasy.
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FRN9
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by FRN9 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:32 am

25Hz wrote:
FRN9 wrote:My point is that this is a more practical idea than extending the R train to Staten Island.
Creating an unrealistic alternative to an all ready unrealistic idea does not make it more practical or more likely to happen.

What some have (including myself) suggested, is to modify the narrows bridge to carry some form of rail service that would connect to the D, N, or LIRR in brooklyn to SIRR.

Using PA money, fleet, personnel, and planning resources for some giant weird SIRR-newark-jersey city-manhattan route is a waste and unrealistic from multiple angles.

I really like HBLR, i'd like if it had a loop station somewhere on the staten island end of the bayonne bridge, which intersected with a saint george-elizabeth service. I think that makes more sense. You can ride HBLR to exchange place, pavonia/newport, or hoboken to access PATH, and if you are going to bayonne, taking the north shore-elizabeth connecting service makes more sense than going all the way up through newark when you then turn back south again at exchange place, especially if the schedules were made so the trains met.

But, HBLR needs expansion IN NJ first, plus you need to figure out what the north shore line-elizabeth situation is with new bridge etc etc, plus we don't even have PATH to rail link yet!!!!

I love out-of-the-box thinking, however this ewr-sirr bit is all firmly in the realm of foamy fantasy.
You're right in the sense that it is not very likely to be funded (or even proposed for funding).

But it's not in the sense that it's either impossible to do or unnecessary.

I like your idea of connecting the SIRR to service in Brooklyn, but where do you propose the ROW to go through and where should it connect? If you look at the route I have proposed via the crude map, the areas for the extended PATH ROW are entirely feasible--or at least much more so than any service connecting to Brooklyn.

With PATCO potentially switching hands to NJT or SEPTA, why would it be so unrealistic to do the same with PATH and put it under the auspices of the MTA with a subsidy from the port authority? Once it is part of the MTA system and has been extended to Newark Airport, then I ask, what is the easiest way (distance and ROW/bridge/tunnel challenges) to connect SIR to the rest of the MTA system? I think my idea is the fastest and least difficult.

Let's say my PATH extension idea doesn't happen--far fetched I know. The idea of connecting HBLR at St. George seems very good too. It can be both extended east to Staten Island AND west to Elizabeth/the new Mall/Parking/Railstop at Aldene that I have proposed.

Adirondacker
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by Adirondacker » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:54 pm

FRN9 wrote:
I think my idea is the fastest and least difficult.
It's not fast. How long is it going to take to go from the station on the Staten Island side of the Goethal Bridge, stop somewhere in Elizabeth, stop at the Airport and stop in Newark? Then add 22 minutes to get from Newark to the World Trade Center.

25Hz
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by 25Hz » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:51 pm

Adirondacker wrote:
FRN9 wrote:
I think my idea is the fastest and least difficult.
It's not fast. How long is it going to take to go from the station on the Staten Island side of the Goethal Bridge, stop somewhere in Elizabeth, stop at the Airport and stop in Newark? Then add 22 minutes to get from Newark to the World Trade Center.
It is approximately 38 minute trip SIF + walking to get from st george on the ferry to wtc. This is via west st.

To go the other way would take probably a hour and 10 minutes with a long (3-5 minute) dwell at newark penn.

This isn't even counting the subway station at the ferry terminal, which would be much more useful than arriving at wtc which reqires, based on where you wanna go, another block or two walking to get to a platform for the A & C or the 2 and 3, or the 6, which is actually over at city hall.
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Adirondacker
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by Adirondacker » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:25 am

25Hz wrote: It is approximately 38 minute trip SIF + walking to get from st george on the ferry to wtc. This is via west st.

To go the other way would take probably a hour and 10 minutes with a long (3-5 minute) dwell at newark penn.

This isn't even counting the subway station at the ferry terminal, which would be much more useful than arriving at wtc which reqires, based on where you wanna go, another block or two walking to get to a platform for the A & C or the 2 and 3, or the 6, which is actually over at city hall.
I haven't done train to ferry in decades. And then only a few times. The escalator ride from the PATH platforms is awfully long. The Morton Street curve is awfully slow if you want to go that way. I don't know how the 4 billion dollar extravaganza is going to be configured. The old concourses, the entrance to the 1 was across the concourse at the top of the escalators and the R was a bit farther but closer than the E. The E is much closer than the A or the C. the 2 and the 3 are closer, at Fulton, than City Hall. It's still a hike. I'd take the R to Union Square and change if I was going that far uptown.

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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by 25Hz » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:54 am

Yea. But, once south ferry is fixed, any uptown service would be best served by that, and change at 14th or times sq, or Columbus circle to get to your destination. Cortland 1 service will have a direct PATH access, as will the R once the transportation/mall/fortress is complete.

Pretty exciting actually, but still nowhere near logic for st george-nwk-WTC line!
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FRN9
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by FRN9 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:59 am

I've thought about everyone's comments.

Maybe the best idea is to extend the HBLR to Staten Island as suggested, but then also to the Newark Airpot and terminating at the NEC station at Newark (replacing monorail). It could also stop at the Ikea before that.

Another branch could extend to Aldene via CNJ ROW and my mall could be built there (maybe even named after me).

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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by 25Hz » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:25 pm

No. The most HBLR would do is cross the bridge.

I don't think you realise how far it is that you're proposing these relatively short connecting services be extended. It would involve vehicle purchases to allow the schedule to stay approximately the same outside of these fantasy routes. You'd need more train operators, building of stations, and construction of pretty much all new ROW for some or all of the route.
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FRN9
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by FRN9 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:38 pm

25Hz wrote:No. The most HBLR would do is cross the bridge.

I don't think you realise how far it is that you're proposing these relatively short connecting services be extended. It would involve vehicle purchases to allow the schedule to stay approximately the same outside of these fantasy routes. You'd need more train operators, building of stations, and construction of pretty much all new ROW for some or all of the route.
With increased development (and the taxes generated) the additional operating costs come back to local government.

I understand the route to Aldene is more iffy, but the connection to St. George, Staten Island and the connection to Newark Airport are not long distances.

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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by 25Hz » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:51 pm

The route from Hoboken to Elizabeth to EWR is VERY long. That's what you're suggesting... You can all ready get to Newark from Hoboken via PATH. Plus you got the extension to airport. That ridiculous route then is moot.

The extension to airport, and the reconnection of Bayonne to Elizabeth are not, and should not be, one train.
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Adirondacker
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by Adirondacker » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:41 pm

FRN9 wrote: With increased development (and the taxes generated) the additional operating costs come back to local government.
Elizabeth is more densely populated than Staten Island. They have a thriving downtown and a mall. Staten Island has malls. Cranford has a thriving downtown and easy access to malls. Why do they need another one? And here's another hint, the people who would be using the exit from the Garden State Parkway, not the Garden State Turnpike, wouldn't be using the train.

Don31
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by Don31 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:45 am

[quote="FRN9"]

With increased development (and the taxes generated) the additional operating costs come back to local government.

quote]

Could you please explain this assertion further? The increase in taxes generated by certain types of development aren't always sufficient to offset the additional local costs that can be caused by the development. Plus, in your scenario, the costs would be borne by either the PA or the MTA (at least thats what I think you posted the other day). Neither agency sees a dime of local tax revenue, so I'm curious as to how increased development would offset the additional operating costs.
You can't fix stupid, but stupid eventually fixes itself.

25Hz
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by 25Hz » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:43 pm

Hello PATH forum.

Just to re-state....... PATH extended to airport. HBLR extended over raised road deck bayonne bridge to a loop terminal intersecting a..... north shore line service that runs from st george & uses the new bridge to cross the water into NJ then run via south broad street to elizabeth station. Then there may be another service that runs from cranford via elizabeth to elizabethport over the CNJ line The end.

Signed, some guy.


P.S. To complicate matters, there is, on the table, projects to lessen the angle of parts of the S curve at elizabeth, as well as build a new station.

P.P.S. I think they should fiddle with S curve (if that's the plan) and build new station BEFORE anything connects to it from staten island or on the old CNJ route.
Next stop the square, journal square station next!

Adirondacker
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Re: PATH Extension to Staten Island from EWR?

Post by Adirondacker » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:10 pm

25Hz wrote:
P.P.S. I think they should fiddle with S curve (if that's the plan) and build new station BEFORE anything connects to it from staten island or on the old CNJ route.
The CNJ was in an intermediate level between the street and the PRR. The two things could be independent of one another.

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