Why is signage so poor?

[jamesinclair]

Spent a lot of time on PATH for the first time this past week, and one thing I noticed consistently....

The signage is absolutely terrible.

No maps on the platforms. Platforms signed as 1,2,3,4 with no idea of which destinations are served. No helpful info at all "ie, if youre going to x, take y and transfer at z" .

Regular riders dont notice things like that, but as a newbie, the system is a major failure in getting customers to understand the system.

[lirr42]

Maps are usually available in brochures near the fare gates.

At stations, all trains on all tracks go all places. You have to look at the side and front destination signs to confirm when the train goes.

Usually, if your confused or don't know where your going, you can jut ask someone. Most people would be willing to help you out.

PATH is a fairly simple system, here is only a couple of routes and a handful of stations. It won't be too long until you get used to the system.

[Amtrak7]

What station are you using? Having ridden all of PATH, I'd say the only really confusing station in terms of boarding locations is Hoboken.

[Allan]

Spent a lot of time on PATH for the first time this past week, and one thing I noticed consistently....

The signage is absolutely terrible.

No maps on the platforms. Platforms signed as 1,2,3,4 with no idea of which destinations are served. No helpful info at all "ie, if youre going to x, take y and transfer at z" .

Regular riders dont notice things like that, but as a newbie, the system is a major failure in getting customers to understand the system.

While I agree with lirr42 that because PATH system is so small, it can be easy to figure out - BUT it can take a while especially if you have never ridden on it. The PATH Timetable, Map and Guide is good but when you are looking to get to the train you are not necessarily going to stand there and read it and note all the various service nuances.

PATH has never been very good on passenger signage. They prefer to spend lots and lots on new stations (while the older stations start falling apart) and new rolling stock and little or nothing on signs. I rode PATH on a daily basis from 2002 to 2008.

I'll give you an example: On an occasional weekend I use PATH to go to Newport (to the Newport Center Mall. When I get off the train at Newport (Journal Square via Hoboken train) I see people still waiting on the platform. They are waiting for the Hoboken to WTC train. That train doesn't run on the weekend. Other than looking very carefully at the PATH map a person who doesn't know that would never know it and would be standing there waiting for a train that won't arrive (unless someone - like myself) tells them what they need to do to get to the WTC.

I have written to PATH several times over the past couple of years suggesting that they put simple 8 1/2 x 11 signs on the platform telling weekend riders that they have to that the Journal Square train to Grove St and then transfer to the WTC train. Each time they said it was a good idea but they have yet to do anything. Lots of money for the new, ultra fancy WTC station but they can't spend $30 or so for signs at Newport.

[25Hz]

A few things.

One: There are maps that describe service patterns in every car usually above the door.

Two: Destinations are on the front center on the top, and on the sides next to the doors.

Three: WTC reconstruction money comes from a combination of different sources.

Four: There are information screens at every station with the time and track scrolling along the bottom, usually 2 per platform.

Five: There are apps and online resources you can access.

[jamesinclair]

What station are you using? Having ridden all of PATH, I'd say the only really confusing station in terms of boarding locations is Hoboken.

I used Hoboken (had no idea how to get to Journal Square, complete lack of maps showing the service patterns didnt help), Newport (extremely confusing, although slightly more understandable, but again, maps showing the service pattern would have halped) Newark (easy to use for obvious reasons), Journal Square (no signage indicating which platform to use for newark bound trains) and I believe 14th (not hard).

A few things.

One: There are maps that describe service patterns in every car usually above the door.

Two: Destinations are on the front center on the top, and on the sides next to the doors.

There are indeed maps inside every car. Not much help if you want to ensure youre getting on the right train first. Ive never experienced a transit system that didnt have ample maps on the platforms and by the fare gates. Sort of frustrating to go to one platform if the train is coming on another one, dont you think?

The trains do have properly signed destinations, but again, not much help if youre on the wrong platform or dont fully understand which train you actually need (again the example of Hoboken to Journal Square, you need a map for that).


I know its not just me, at every station I saw people asking for directions. At Journal Square it seemed like a (moody) cop was posted for simply that purpose. You know what helps more than a moody cop? replacing "tracks 3 and 4" with a sign that says "outbound"

[25Hz]

I think PATH has minimal maps because they don't want one more thing to maintain & protect from vandals. Some of the NYCT subway maps are torn off the walls, burned, etc.

Then there's the water.... Grove street isn't so bad, but hoboken, pavonia/newport, and exchange place are built in fill, so they are basically surrounded by water on all sides. Not the best environment for paper maps.

Journal square does have maps if i'm remembering correctly.

Another issue is that because its a 2 track systems, trains can "wrong rail" to get out of the way of a deadhead etc. Platform track isn't 100%, not even 80%, maybe 60% predictable. Last time i was there at newport there were signs saying trains to 33rd & trains to wtc at the top of the stairs to the platforms coming down the main ramp.

Lastly, theres very little room all ready on these platforms. Maps could be put in enamel on steel or alu signs & put on columns, but again there are the info screens so...

[Terry Kennedy]

IGrove street isn't so bad, but hoboken, pavonia/newport, and exchange place are built in fill, so they are basically surrounded by water on all sides.

Minor nitpick - Exchange Place is actually in hard rock. It was excavated out from under the existing Pennsylvania terminal. Interesting bit of trivia - you can see where they brought the material out. Near the river end on the WTC-bound platform, look across the track at the wall. You'll see 2 stainless steel doors in the wall. Outside, walk south from the station along the river walkway. Look for a large round concrete surface in the water at the shoreline. That's actually the same type of rings used in the tunnels, but placed vertically instead of horizontally, with a concrete cap on the top. Between there and the doors back in the station, there's a raw rock tunnel. Only the floor is a finished surface.

Extra-credit trivia question - what is the one other place where rings were installed for some purpose other than operating trains, besides the Exchange Place shaft I mentioned above? I don't mean the incomplete Astor Place spur, or the short pieces under E and F track on the WTC side of the river, as those were built for planned train service.

[MACTRAXX]

What station are you using? Having ridden all of PATH, I'd say the only really confusing station in terms of boarding locations is Hoboken.

I used Hoboken (had no idea how to get to Journal Square, complete lack of maps showing the service patterns didnt help), Newport (extremely confusing, although slightly more understandable, but again, maps showing the service pattern would have halped) Newark (easy to use for obvious reasons), Journal Square (no signage indicating which platform to use for newark bound trains) and I believe 14th (not hard).

A few things.

One: There are maps that describe service patterns in every car usually above the door.

Two: Destinations are on the front center on the top, and on the sides next to the doors.

There are indeed maps inside every car. Not much help if you want to ensure youre getting on the right train first. Ive never experienced a transit system that didnt have ample maps on the platforms and by the fare gates. Sort of frustrating to go to one platform if the train is coming on another one, dont you think?

The trains do have properly signed destinations, but again, not much help if youre on the wrong platform or dont fully understand which train you actually need (again the example of Hoboken to Journal Square, you need a map for that).
JS: You are right-PATH cars have color-coded route maps near the doorways in each car and they use the over door outside destination three letter code signs...At one time for example trains operating between the WTC and
Newark would use both the NWK and WTC marks simultaneously...That was changed (sometime in the 90s?) to use only the train's actual destination...


I know its not just me, at every station I saw people asking for directions. At Journal Square it seemed like a (moody) cop was posted for simply that purpose. You know what helps more than a moody cop? replacing "tracks 3 and 4" with a sign that says "outbound"

JS: I would prefer a "WESTBOUND-NEWARK" sign at JSQ instead of the dreaded "Outbound" term...MACTRAXX

[jamesinclair]

I know its not just me, at every station I saw people asking for directions. At Journal Square it seemed like a (moody) cop was posted for simply that purpose. You know what helps more than a moody cop? replacing "tracks 3 and 4" with a sign that says "outbound"

JS: I would prefer a "WESTBOUND-NEWARK" sign at JSQ instead of the dreaded "Outbound" term...MACTRAXX[/quote]

Theres more than enough room for all of them!

Westbound/outbound to Newark via Harrison
Eastbound/inbound to Manhattan

[25Hz]

The trains are signed with their destination in the color of the line they are running on. No need to complicate that.

I think adding a few more, and more frequently updating info screens would end any confusion. At most stations there are visible PA employees, one is usually posted at the bottom of the stairs at pavonia/newport's island platform, probably the most confusing station since you lose a lot of directional orientation walking down from street level. At hoboken, you simply look for the signage on the trains.

And, the extension of exp was west into fill. if you go back there you see all the water stains & you can sometimes hear the drainage pump running, and the east end is basically right at the bank/river interface. Up above the tunnels the road there is all sunken in all over the place.

As far as rings, possibly pavonia/newport, the walkway walls from entry concourse to track steps is all bolted together looking, but i could be remembering it wrong.

Edit: EXP extension was to the west, not to the east (the river is right there!).

[Amtrak7]

At Journal Square it seemed like a (moody) cop was posted for simply that purpose. You know what helps more than a moody cop? replacing "tracks 3 and 4" with a sign that says "outbound"

When I used Hoboken on a weekend earlier this year a cop was stationed at the foot of the steps asking every passenger for their destination and pointing them to the right platform.

[ryanov]

What station are you guys using that has no system map? Every station I've been to has had at least one, though I admit I'm no longer looking for them. Newark absolutely has one, as do 14th and 23rd at a minimum. I would be really surprised if JSQ did not have more than one.

[lirr42]

There are system maps in all PA-5 cars as well.

[ryanov]

It does help way less on the cars. You don't want to get on to look at a map, unless you're in Newark and have only one choice. Right now having a map in the cars in Newark would not even help you.