Bar cars: end of an era?

[Ridgefielder]

Now has any independent group of say wealthy bankers, etc. ever proposed paying for their own MU bar car (including electricity usage, maintenance costs, etc.) to be used on select trains? This would satisfy the "wants" (MNR riders don't really "need" one as much as they need actual seats) of a bar car, but with the added benefit of exclusivity making it a true "club car" rather than a *public* bar car. Furthermore MNR would be reimbursed for any costs involved and could focus solely on maximizing seating capacity. IIRC the North Jersey Coast Line has had a similar car (albeit a rebuilt Comet IIM) in the past. Though the costs of paying for, maintaining, etc. a single MU car would be pretty steep, I don't think there aren't enough affluent commuters who'd be willing to pitch in to have their own car (though it wouldn't look good when word gets out to the press )

The New Haven and New York Central both ran a number of private membership-only commuter cars in the pre-Metro North era, as did the Lackawanna, Jersey Central, Chicago & North Western and probably other railroads that I'm forgetting at the moment. The former NH and NYC private cars came to an end as new MU and then standard coach equipment took over post-1970 but I don't have exact dates, and the Lackawanna's cars similarly lasted until the end of their DC MUs. These days, public railroads like MN and NJ Transit wouldn't run them because of the political correctness issue of allowing an elite group to have special service even if they were paying for it.

IIRC the members of the Southport club car actually approached the MTA about doing exactly what NH2060 suggested when the M2s were coming online in the early 1970s. They were turned down, not sure of the precise reasoning but I think it was a car-usage issue.

[TCurtin]

No, not car usage. The reason CDOT turned them down was that they were a public agency that could not legally justify providing any kind of elite service EVEN WHEN THE CLUB MEMBERS TOLD CDOT TO NAME THEIR PRICE!!!!

[TCurtin]

What I'm seeing on this thread is a lot of pontificating about the value ---- or lack of same --- of bar cars. What we want to know is very simply: "Are there bar cars on the trains this week or not??????

Before I sign off I will repeat something I have said before: on-train bar cars are one of the pleasantest traditions of commuting on the New Haven. They have been so for decades, and they add value in the form of customer sat. And nobody is going to convince me they do not pay for themselves. For the record, I'm retired and no longer a commuter but nevertheless I'm damn sick and tired of all the advocacy of dry trains that I read on this forum.

[DutchRailnut]

no one lets commuters travel dry, but get use to idea of no bar cars, there may not be any for M-8 fleet.
and with 9 bar cars in a M-2 fleet that currently has less than 90 M-2's left, their demise will come fast.

[SwingMan]

Well the only way to increase space in the car, which will probably never happen ever, is either moving the vestibules like the Shoreliners, or removing vestibules all together and shorten the bar. Neither of which are good ideas realisticly.

[Clean Cab]

What I'm seeing on this thread is a lot of pontificating about the value ---- or lack of same --- of bar cars. What we want to know is very simply: "Are there bar cars on the trains this week or not??????

Before I sign off I will repeat something I have said before: on-train bar cars are one of the pleasantest traditions of commuting on the New Haven. They have been so for decades, and they add value in the form of customer sat. And nobody is going to convince me they do not pay for themselves. For the record, I'm retired and no longer a commuter but nevertheless I'm damn sick and tired of all the advocacy of dry trains that I read on this forum.

Nostalgia is great, but these days seats are at a premium.

[RearOfSignal]

Though I would to see the bar car remain and be implemented in future railcars, I think it's inevitable -the bar car will soon go the way of the RFW. It's just no longer practical in this day and age.

[alewifebp]

No, not car usage. The reason CDOT turned them down was that they were a public agency that could not legally justify providing any kind of elite service EVEN WHEN THE CLUB MEMBERS TOLD CDOT TO NAME THEIR PRICE!!!!

Although it worked in NJ. On the North Jersey Coast Line, they had a special car for a commuter club for years. I think the only reasons it stopped was the increased cost and long standing members were either retiring or their work schedules changed so that the car no longer made sense.

[TCurtin]

What I'm seeing on this thread is a lot of pontificating about the value ---- or lack of same --- of bar cars. What we want to know is very simply: "Are there bar cars on the trains this week or not??????

Before I sign off I will repeat something I have said before: on-train bar cars are one of the pleasantest traditions of commuting on the New Haven. They have been so for decades, and they add value in the form of customer sat. And nobody is going to convince me they do not pay for themselves. For the record, I'm retired and no longer a commuter but nevertheless I'm damn sick and tired of all the advocacy of dry trains that I read on this forum.

Nostalgia is great, but these days seats are at a premium.

Don't overlook that most of the bar car patrons are voluntarily in that car, standing, because they simply enjoy standing and socializing at the bar (after having been sitting on their respective derrierres in an office all day). i haven't counted but I would bet if you do take a head count of the bar car users on a typical train it probably matches the seating capacity of a coach. That being the case, they aren't losing any practical or necessary seating.

[TCurtin]

Nobody has answered this question yet: are there in fact bar cars on the trains this week or not? That's what started this thread

[TCurtin]

No, not car usage. The reason CDOT turned them down was that they were a public agency that could not legally justify providing any kind of elite service EVEN WHEN THE CLUB MEMBERS TOLD CDOT TO NAME THEIR PRICE!!!!

Although it worked in NJ. On the North Jersey Coast Line, they had a special car for a commuter club for years. I think the only reasons it stopped was the increased cost and long standing members were either retiring or their work schedules changed so that the car no longer made sense.

That's quite interesting. I didn't know that. Who actually owned the NJ car? Did the club own the car or lease it from NJT? What the Southport CT commuters were proposing to do back in 1974 was lease a private car from CDOT, as they had been doing from the rairoad for years. I rather doubt that CDOT was citing any actual law back in 1974. I would bet that when confronted with the issue they simply established an agency policy that made sense to them.

[peconicstation]

Nobody has answered this question yet: are there in fact bar cars on the trains this week or not? That's what started this thread

Thank You, well, to those who ride the New Haven line, were any bar cars in-service Monday ??

Ken

[MSC34]

Did a quick search on Google and found this page, which lists the past week's trains having bar cars: http://www.wheresthebarcar.com/

[Clean Cab]

The original topic was are bar cars being phased out? I think the answer has been made clear, yes. There are 9 bar pairs still in service (of the original 20). The two pairs that did not go through CSR will be the first ones retired followed eventually by the other 7. So far there are no concrete plans to create any M8 type of bar cars. Although the M8 contract did have a clause for "up to" 24 bar cars in it.

[Terminal Proceed]

This thread is SOLELY about the NH line bar car service as run by MNRR - not about what ANY other railroad does. I'm tempted to lock but will refrain for the moment.