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  • MARC AEM-7s

  • Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.
Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: mtuandrew, therock, Robert Paniagua

 #1041598  by electricron
 
Silverliner II wrote:And they were having their own mechanical issues too, also discussed in a few threads over there. Given the choice between new stuff and a rebuild, well, may as well go new, given the chance....
Given the chance and having the financial resources to do so. But, even fairly recent brand new rail transit agencies around the country have looked at buying used equipment recently, and I don't see why MARC should act differently.
1) UTA bought 25 used NJT Comets.
2) NCPR has only bought 2 of its 9 GP40 and F59 locomotives brand new, 7 were bought used.
3) TRE has only bought 2 of its 9 F59 diesel locomotives brand new, 7 were bought used.
4) TRE has 13 used RDCs in its consist inventory.
5) TRE has 12 of its 25 bilevel railcars used, 13 were bought new.
6) Music City Star has bought all 4 of its F40PH locomotives used, as well as all 12 of its Galley Cars.

I'm not suggesting every commuter rail agency should buy used equipment, just that they should at least think about it. As for the suitability of ex-NJT ALP-44s, I'll admit I don't know. But on the whole, NJT was/is running much longer trains than MARC. What may no longer be acceptable for NJT, may be for MARC.
 #1041689  by dt_rt40
 
I hope something happens on this front. For MARC Penn to slide back to using an all-diesel fleet would just be completely pathetic. I won't further elaborate except to point out that the rest of the first world pretty much moves people electrically when it comes to rail transport on main lines. I've ridden various semi-obscure trains in Europe...for example even the train from Zaragoza to Bilbao is electric. Other than the Scottish Highlands, I've never ridden a diesel train in Europe. I've ridden CalTrain and it was a really impressive system, other than the idiotic objections to electrifying it. ("it will make my dog grow 5 legs" "it will disturb my Chakras" "it will affect the taste of my pot" etc., etc.)
 #1041731  by AEM7AC920
 
Jersey_Mike wrote:
Oh brother you haven't been reading in the njt forum any... They were retired for a reason.
Because they were offered something brand new. If your rich uncle showed up and asked if you car was working ok because if it wasn't he'd gladly buy you a replacement what would your response be?

Any way you look at it the ALP44s were tired worn out and had the snot beat out them as some of the people that ran them on a daily basis put it. I was only quoting the original poster who compared them to the AEM7s as being newer and in better condition.
 #1041773  by realtype
 
electricron wrote:But on the whole, NJT was/is running much longer trains than MARC. What may no longer be acceptable for NJT, may be for MARC.
Until recently, when the MTA shortened the consists to increase service frequency and because the HHP-8's would break down in the summer,, MARC operated 8-9 car sets of solid bilevels. When the "multilevel" order begins delivery they'll probably go back to the longer trains. I don't know how many bilevels the ALP-44 can pull/push since NJT used the ALP-46 exclusively for those sets, but I've always seen them with 8 car single level consists.

Another route the MTA/MARC could take would be to purchase Amtrak's AEM-7AC's and HHP-8's from them when they receive their ACS-64's.
dt_rt40 wrote:I hope something happens on this front. For MARC Penn to slide back to using an all-diesel fleet would just be completely pathetic.
I doubt they would consider that. Just the fact that they still operate electrics given how much trouble both models have been recently is a testament to that. Going all diesel would slow down the Penn Line (which runs electrics at 125mph) way too much, especially since the new diesels top out at 90mph instead of 100mph. Commuter/intercity rail electrification is definitely not the norm in this country. Outside of the Northeast its just Metra Electric and the South Shore Line in the Chicago area.
 #1043032  by HokieNav
 
realtype wrote: Another route the MTA/MARC could take would be to purchase Amtrak's AEM-7AC's and HHP-8's from them when they receive their ACS-64's.
The AEM-7's would be nice. I don't think anyone would be interested in spending a dime on the HHP's.

At least as of last fall, MARC had no plans on getting in on the ACS-64 order.

Maybe as the order winds down and they have (hopefully!) proven to be reliable, that story will change.

Remember, MARC ended up with the HHPs as a tag on to an Amtrak order, and that hasn't gone well for them.
 #1043143  by ThirdRail7
 
HokieNav wrote:
realtype wrote: At least as of last fall, MARC had no plans on getting in on the ACS-64 order.

Maybe as the order winds down and they have (hopefully!) proven to be reliable, that story will change.

Remember, MARC ended up with the HHPs as a tag on to an Amtrak order, and that hasn't gone well for them.
On the other hand, they got the meatballs by tagging on an Amtrak order. So, they're 1-1. Shall we go for a tie breaker? :)
 #1043539  by Jtgshu
 
The ALP44s have seen better days. Some are more reliable than others, but as a whole, they are worn out. NJT has seen a marked DECREASE in mechanical failures since the '44s were pulled from service. Thats expected as they are being replaced with new locomotives, but they had their day in the sun, and seem to be enjoying retirement sitting up in Port Morris Yard.

The thing that people don't understand is how much NJT uses their equipment. The locos might not be that old, (some were built new in 1996/97) but even the youngest loco has im sure at least a million miles (as some of the ALP46s, new from 2002 are getting around the 3/4 million mile mark now), while the older ones probably have close to if not more than 2 million. they were run hard up until the end when they were pulled from service. And while those mileage stats might not seem THAT high compared to say the Amtrak AEM7s going back and forth on the NEC all day, i would guesstimate the mileage is probably about a 1:2 comparison of start stops with the amount of stops on a local, stop signals, and various other reasons a train might stop in route on a trip. So if it has 1.5 million miles, that means probably somewhere around 750,000 start stops. The AEM7s would have much higher mileage compared to start stops for an equivalant mileage.

NJT claimed that the '44s didn't work reliably with the Multilevels and that they were a load on HEP. How true or not that claim is, i guess could be debated. But they did run 6 car ML sets with a '44 in revenue service for a little while, as well as the ACES train ran 4 cars as well as providing power for the P40 that was trailing. I ran a test train of a 9 car ML set (and a trailing, not powered '46 to count as another car as well as a full passenger load for all the cars) with a single '44 powering it and while it moved, there was NO way it would keep schedule or anywhere close to it. It took 7 miles to get up to 90mph from a stop, and experienced near constant wheel slip. The '44s could handle 10 comet (single level) cars but that was slow, but it would just barely be able to keep schedule. No matter how hard you ran it, you weren't going to make up any time and a rainy day, you were loosing time quickly...

Im sure another operator could wring a few more years out of some of them, especially if they were put in less demanding service, like shorter trains and express trains, but those kind of restrictions didn't work for NJT and the way it runs and operates its equipment, as well as the cost for a rebuild would have been way up there, not that far off from a new loco. Not to mention, you NEED to have reliable equipment to deal with the North River tunnels. I remember a few times sitting there at A interlocking stopped on the hill in the tunnel hoping the '44 would 'start back up' as it would power down when sitting a while. It would sound like a tired old Chevy with a dying battery when it would kick back on....

Maybe they will work for MARC, maybe they will work for Septa. They do have some life left in them, as I said they were run in demanding daily service til they were pulled. Also, NJT has a very capable shop and the units were well maintained. I wouldn't say its quite Wilmington, but its no slouch either. They can take and replace/rebuild any part of any loco in the fleet.

Also, as a side note, Amtrak borrowed some over the past year for work trains as well, and as far as I know, had no issues with them.
 #1043683  by DutchRailnut
 
Don't forget the NJT units according to NJT are due for $1 million overhaul and are way past Federal overhaul dates.
So even if you got the engine for $500 000 to get it to work you need to cough up $ 1.5 million per unit for old outdated motor.
 #1044038  by ThirdRail7
 
Jtgshu wrote:
Im sure another operator could wring a few more years out of some of them, especially if they were put in less demanding service, like shorter trains and express trains, but those kind of restrictions didn't work for NJT and the way it runs and operates its equipment, as well as the cost for a rebuild would have been way up there, not that far off from a new loco. Not to mention, you NEED to have reliable equipment to deal with the North River tunnels. I remember a few times sitting there at A interlocking stopped on the hill in the tunnel hoping the '44 would 'start back up' as it would power down when sitting a while. It would sound like a tired old Chevy with a dying battery when it would kick back on....

Maybe they will work for MARC, maybe they will work for Septa. They do have some life left in them, as I said they were run in demanding daily service til they were pulled. Also, NJT has a very capable shop and the units were well maintained. I wouldn't say its quite Wilmington, but its no slouch either. They can take and replace/rebuild any part of any loco in the fleet.

Also, as a side note, Amtrak borrowed some over the past year for work trains as well, and as far as I know, had no issues with them.
The 4403 was terrible, but the rest were doable. They had their own personalities. The 4406/4412 and 4408/4410 combos were flawless. If you mixed them up, all hell broke loose! :)

That being said, they have PLENTY of life in them if used properly. That doesn't mean slapping on double deckers and parading them all over NJ. MARC service is IDEAL! A deadhead move from BAL to PVL. A revenue trip from PVL-BAL. A possible WAS-BAL-WAS round trip, then off to the pit. 4 to 5 hours later, they're off to PVL. Best case scenario, they DH PVL and call it a night. Worst case, another BAL-WAS round trip.

If they saw 250 miles a day, that would be alot. Plus they're off weekends!

DutchRailnut wrote:Don't forget the NJT units according to NJT are due for $1 million overhaul and are way past Federal overhaul dates.
So even if you got the engine for $500 000 to get it to work you need to cough up $ 1.5 million per unit for old outdated motor.
Well, let's take another look at this. The Amtrak AEM-7s were tired and outdated when the reman program took place. The engines that didn't benefit from the reman program were overhauled. It was cheaper than buying new motors. 11 years later, the engines are still plying the corridor, at a significantly reduced price.

MARC electric service isn't that demanding. They really don't need brand new electric motors that aren't proven on the corridors. If they can get 10 to 15 years by overhauling/remanufacturing 2 ALPS for the price of 1 new motor, it is money well spent.
 #1044086  by Jtgshu
 
HAHAHA its funny you mentioned those particular motors.....yes they each have their own personality, and its funny how after the last time I ran one was over 2 years ago (4407 on a shop move to Long Branch and back) i still remember the quirks of each of them.

I wondered why they always seemed to be matched in those particular pairs, I figured it had something to do with them working better or worse with each other. The few times I had doubleheaded '44s on a train, it was often like one was fighting the other.....

only 250 miles a day? Thats NOTHING! Thats only slightly more than 2 round trips to Trenton! they would do that in 6 hours on NJT.....

sheesh, that would be a vacation for them, and weekends off? Wow....id be very jealous!
 #1044094  by DutchRailnut
 
It really does not matter how much you run them now, you still got to spend $1.5 million on each old locomotive, and that is before you can use them.
just to comply with inspections standards of CFR, , and no paint job s included yet, no acces is installed yet , etc etc etc..
 #1044187  by realtype
 
I appreciate the NJT guys giving insight into the ALP-44's. Yeah, if an overhaul is necessary I don't think the MTA/MARC would even consider it, seeing what happened to our 4 AEM-7's (built in 1986) with their overhaul. That overhaul was scheduled to take 18 months and instead took well over 3 years, one of the reasons being that some part they needed wasn't manufactured anymore (a common problem in maintaining/overhauling transit vehicles).

Even now the AEM-7's are in the Ivy City yard half the time, and when they're not are always run doubleheaded. So they were actually more reliable before the overhaul. Really, what the MTA should have done is had them overhauled into AC's when Amtrak was doing there's and there wouldn't have been any issues. The HHP-8's are hardly any better, and the MTA already has plans to overhaul them (even though they're still virtually new) .With summer coming HHP-8 breakdowns are a foregone conclusion, although MARC might lease them to Amtrak again.

Yet another option I haven't mentioned would be for MARC to get ALP-46a's, but I'm not sure if they've been certified for 125mph yet.
 #1044348  by Fan Railer
 
realtype wrote: Even now the AEM-7's are in the Ivy City yard half the time, and when they're not are always run doubleheaded. So they were actually more reliable before the overhaul. Really, what the MTA should have done is had them overhauled into AC's when Amtrak was doing there's and there wouldn't have been any issues. The HHP-8's are hardly any better, and the MTA already has plans to overhaul them (even though they're still virtually new) .With summer coming HHP-8 breakdowns are a foregone conclusion, although MARC might lease them to Amtrak again.

Yet another option I haven't mentioned would be for MARC to get ALP-46a's, but I'm not sure if they've been certified for 125mph yet.
You're talking about MARC leasing AEM-7s to Amtrak?
And yes, the 46A's have been certified for 125 mph operation by the Feds in Pueblo, IIRC.
 #1044356  by DutchRailnut
 
Who mentioned 46A's ??
and who mentioned about MARC leasing to Amtrak ??
 #1044360  by realtype
 
Fan Railer wrote:You're talking about MARC leasing AEM-7s to Amtrak?
And yes, the 46A's have been certified for 125 mph operation by the Feds in Pueblo, IIRC.
Nope, the HHP-8's. They leased at least 3 last summer due to Amtrak's locomotive shortage. MARC currently has a surplus of locomotives (32 diesels, 10 electrics) and the HHP-8's don't like to be run with a heavy load (in stop and go service with 7+ bievels) in these hot summers we've had recently.

MARC 4910 with Amtrak 193
MARC 4912 with Amtrak 193
MARC 4914 with Amtrak 193
DutchRailnut wrote:Who mentioned 46A's ??
and who mentioned about MARC leasing to Amtrak ??
I had suggested the ALP-46A's as a potential future electric locomotive for MARC, if not the HCS-64's.