Anti-freeze alternates

[crij]

Hello all,

I know we have hashed out the problems with 567 engines, in regards to use of Glycol antifreeze, which is don't unless the gaskets have been converted and it is a C or later block. Part of that discussion revieled that some companies have been using the predecessor of Ethylene Glycol anti-freeze with success, Methanol. With the only real caviet being that the specific gravity needs to be checked regularly due to the fact that the methanol will boil off over time.

Has anyone checked the possibility of using Ethenol, which has a more stable molecule?

With the up and coming boi-fuel craze, the ethenol should be easier to get soon, in quantities needed to protect a locomotive.

Regards,

Rich C

[UPRR engineer]

Ya dont want to put anything in there you cant dump on the ground, i love to kill and drain motors that are past there 90 day inspection. Fun for me , helps insure rule compliance to the guys i hand the train over to, Tag it and Dump it.

[crij]

UPRR,

Ethenol is wood alcohol. Just as safe to dump on the ground as Jack Daniels or water. Safer to dump then methanol. Just make sure you don't drink it in high concentrations it will kill you.

Rich C

[UPRR engineer]

I did not know that, BUT....id hate to catch on fire tho, or catch a buzz from the fumes as i staggered back to the headend, 70 MPH and high as a kite. Dont think the UP would like that.

[QuietGuy]

There are two problems with using antifreeze.

The first involves cooling properties. Ethylene Glycol is 0nly 90% as good as water to cool the engine. If used during hot weather, it may not be able to cool the engine enough and it could crack the heads. Or it could simply overheat the engine. This can be avoided by not running at full capacity, or at 90% power. Proplyene Glycol is only 80% as efficient as water. However, since 1995 EMD has run and tested its engines with this stuff, it worked fine and didn't overheat. However, those engines were run in newer radiators with greater capacity. Look at the SD-90's and the SD-70MACe's - these have bigger radiators than the old SD-40s, 50s & 60s. The pumps were changed to get more water into the engine also. With more fluid, even with the glycol mix, the cooling capacity was there in the cylinder heads and they didn't overheat. This won't work in a 645 or 567 unless the pumps are replaced with a higher capacity. There may not be a bigger capacity pump available for every engine - ya gotta check the parts books.

The second item involves contamination. Ethlene Glycol does a bad number on oil. RR's check the oil everyday. The tests come back the next day, but that is usually enough time to catch the locomotive & shut down the engine before major damage is done. Most leaks occur at the jumpers from the water line to the cylinders. If you check the oil everyday, and note it's level, you can see if it is increasing (due to water in the sump or diesel fuel from a bad injector). You can also see the water fouling the oil, if you know what to look for. Since most railroads don't require the engineers or conductors to monitor the engines (that is done by the hacks at the yards), those people only find out the hard way that there is a problem (i.e. the engine shuts down or explodes!!).

Propylene glycol isn't much better. The methanol or ethanol boil away in the oil if they leak into the sump (normal water temp is 180F), leaving only the water. Both of those also reduce the capacity of the fluid to carry heat from the cylinder to the radiator, so during hot weather, the engines can overheat.

You can use antifreeze in an older EMD engine, just monitor the oil daily and don't push the engine to its full capacity. The newer ones will work with antifreeze, but EMD will never officially admit it for railroad engines. They do have information on anitfreeze usage for Power and Industrial Service engines and many years of satisfactory service, but railroads don't like to review any other service but their own past usage.

[crij]

Unfortunately here I am thinking again, does anyone know if the Low Tox Anti-freezes (Propylene Glycol) cause any problems in the crank case, other then the milkshake?