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  • Results of a sold EMD

  • Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.
Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.

Moderator: GOLDEN-ARM

 #142097  by Nasadowsk
 
Forget a Corvette, I knew plenty of kids in College who'd take an old Nova or Chevelle or Camaro...

Though a corvette? Yeah, I'd take one too :)

(and, when you get down to it, it is STILL an amazing value - supercar performance with widespread cheap and easy parts/repair, and great aftermarket support. And it performs well by any measure)

 #142154  by Nelson Bay
 
[quote="Nasadowsk"]Forget a Corvette, I knew plenty of kids in College who'd take an old Nova or Chevelle or Camaro... etc

Good comments Nasadowsk... refreshing to hear some intelligent comments on this thread for a change.




...

 #142174  by Ol' Loco Guy
 
Comment from a D&H foreman who showed me around a brand new
7600 (GP-39-2) at Colonie many years ago.

"Look-the railroad finally entered the 20th century. No more steam engines."

That being said...

The best friend GE ever had was Roger Smith-who absolutely ran GM into the ground. Anyone remember that he spent 85 BILLION dollars on re-designing GM's entire line of automobiles-only to see their market share go into free fall.

Suppose some of that money had been invested into the EMD operation
during those years-instead of willfully neglecting the business. Think the
LaGrange plant might still be around ?

I'd bet if you took 10O railroaders of all stripes in a room and took a poll, 90 plus percent would prefer to run and operate EMD.

 #142384  by junction tower
 
Nelson, if you believe that, you are more clueless than I thought. Sure they want a 'vette, like back when Disco was at the top of the charts...
Most college grads today think on the lines of Acura, Lexus, and Infinity as their dream cars, not some crusty, rattletraps like the Corvette.
It is painfully obvious you don't know a THING about the Corvette, at least ones built in the last 10-15 years. The Corvette is a WORLD CLASS car in every sense EXCEPT price. Any other car with comperable performance will cost you close to twice as much. It has also been winning awards for initial quality and customer satisfaction. The new C6 pumps out 400 horsepower and 28 MPG! The new ZO6 with 505 horsepower is going to blow nearly everything in the weeds. When I was at the factory in April, they had two shifts cranking them out and many of the cars were for export to other countries. I promise you it isn't a bunch of uneducated goobers buying them either. Around here (Indiana) they are often the choice of people that have truly made it. The Guy that built the two big Steel Dynamics steel mills in northeast Indiana is one of the biggest Corvette collectors in the Country. Sure a lot of those college grads want a Lexus now, but when they grow up, a lot of them will be driving Vettes.

 #142566  by Nasadowsk
 
I love when car nuts badmouth the Corvette, yet PRAISE the Acura (Honda) NSX. Especially given a Corvette will outperform an NSX (and I'm not saying the NSX is bad, it's a great car, but it's got a few quirks too) and costs a LOT less. Then again, I remember watching car freaks drool over the lethargic S2000 'because it can rev to 8,500 rpm!!!' ignoring the fact that the thing SUCKED in in town traffic bigtime...

Most people who buy Lexi or infinities do so because they want to flaunt their non existent wealth and protray an 'I'm better than you' attitude. Maybe they're college educated, but they're didn't learn much...

In any case, ask around, you'll find a LOT of people are paying attention to Caddillac these days. most kids would rather a Caddy than their grandma's Toyota - and that 'grandma' image WILL ruin Toyota. Why else would they make a whole new brand to market just to kids? The whole auto industry knows it, and GM, if they can clean up nagging Q/C issues (not to mention Chrysler, who could really kick ass if THEY did, they've got brand marketing down to a better science than GM right now) and come out with a few nice designs, can suck in the young buyers that you want (older people buy expensive cars, true, but they also die shortly thereafter, younger buyers buy cars after car after car...)

Right now, GM needs a good, honest RWD platform or two, and some good image/brand marketing/alignment. Then just fix the spotty build quality and crap materials, and they can really get rolling again.

As for EMD? If GM cared, they could have gotten into an "emissions war" with GE and likely won. They've been dealing with the EPA crap for 40 years almost. GE hasn't...

 #142716  by n01jd1
 
Nasadowsk wrote:I love when car nuts badmouth the Corvette, yet PRAISE the Acura (Honda) NSX. Especially given a Corvette will outperform an NSX (and I'm not saying the NSX is bad, it's a great car, but it's got a few quirks too) and costs a LOT less. Then again, I remember watching car freaks drool over the lethargic S2000 'because it can rev to 8,500 rpm!!!' ignoring the fact that the thing SUCKED in in town traffic bigtime...

Most people who buy Lexi or infinities do so because they want to flaunt their non existent wealth and protray an 'I'm better than you' attitude. Maybe they're college educated, but they're didn't learn much...

In any case, ask around, you'll find a LOT of people are paying attention to Caddillac these days. most kids would rather a Caddy than their grandma's Toyota - and that 'grandma' image WILL ruin Toyota. Why else would they make a whole new brand to market just to kids? The whole auto industry knows it, and GM, if they can clean up nagging Q/C issues (not to mention Chrysler, who could really kick ass if THEY did, they've got brand marketing down to a better science than GM right now) and come out with a few nice designs, can suck in the young buyers that you want (older people buy expensive cars, true, but they also die shortly thereafter, younger buyers buy cars after car after car...)

Right now, GM needs a good, honest RWD platform or two, and some good image/brand marketing/alignment. Then just fix the spotty build quality and crap materials, and they can really get rolling again.

As for EMD? If GM cared, they could have gotten into an "emissions war" with GE and likely won. They've been dealing with the EPA crap for 40 years almost. GE hasn't...
GM does not make a bad car, but they need to make the Chevy and Buick lines look better. Right now the best looking cars they have are Pontiac's. Also GM should never have gotten rid of the Camaro/Trans Am. As for the kids who buy Jap pieces of garbage, pimp them out and then think they have a muscle car, an old 1960's Chevelle or even a 1980's Camaro Berlinetta would beat them off the line. Hope they have fun when they blow the bottom end out of their crappy 4 cylinders from drag racing. Now to the locomotive end, If the new owners of EMD do the right R&D they can bring EMD back to the #1 spot it enjoyed for so many years. Come on EMD, YOU CAN DO IT!!

 #142842  by Nasadowsk
 
As one friend of mine puts it - what does a Civic with $500 in the motor, a civic with $1000 in the motor, and a civic with $5000 in the motor have in common? Crappy timeslips.

I love it when they try to soup up a POS FWD econocar, and think that the K&N, etc REALLY gives them an extra 50 HP....

I once saw a series of tests for 'performance' headers on the Civic. The best ($800!) headers had a whopping 3hp increase over stock. Actually, that's a change that's so little, the tolerance stackup in the dyno could cause it.

People forget that those little buzzbomb motors were SO optimized from the factory to begin with, there's practically NOTHING you can do to them. It's not like a bigger motor where they detune it to shut the EPA up (though even that's changing - most engines today are pretty optimized from the factory).

Ditto for the handling, etc. I always giggle at how they drop ('slam') the cars to nothing, then they can't deal with speedbumps, and they handle even WORSE than they did stock.

Heck - a Kia today can outhandle a sports car of the 60's. tha'ts how good even crap cars today are, and generally, most cars pretty much exceed the abilities of the driver anyway...

 #142995  by Nelson Bay
 
:(

 #145524  by Nelson Bay
 
Strategy from John Hamilton, EMD President & CEO




Subject: EMD Update


ORGANIZATIONAL ANNOUNCEMENT

To further the development of our China and Operating strategies, I would like to announce these new responsibilities.

I have named Ralph Robinson Vice President of Supply Chain Management, Special Activities. In this assignment, Ralph will be responsible for establishing a permanent position for EMD in the Chinese market. Among his responsibilities will be the identification of joint venture partners and manufacturing suppliers that will enable us to fully compete in the Chinese market. Further, when we win the current China tender, Ralph will be catalyst for the localization of certain activities in the China market. Ralph's many years of experience with EMD will add great focus to our China sourcing and technology transfer efforts, and underscores our commitment to building our business and relationships in China for both the short- and longer-term. I am pleased to have him continue to serve as a member of the leadership team.

Al Hediger has been promoted from Director of Continuous Improvement to Vice President of Operations. Al brings over twenty-five years of manufacturing and operations experience to EMD, and I am pleased to welcome him into this role. Reporting to Al will be Nat Harris, Director, LaGrange Operations; Elizabeth Krische, Director, Supply Chain Management; and Matt Labord, Director, London Locomotive Operations.

We have initiated the recruitment process to replace for Al in the Continuous Improvement organization. I am committed to driving forward with the initiatives and process improvement activities that Al had put into place, and look forward to continuing that progress.

Both Ralph and Al will report to me in their new roles. I would ask your help in assisting them as needed going forward. Thank you.


John Hamilton,
President and CEO

 #176189  by XBNSFer
 
OK I'm going to steal a Bill Maher routine here, but...

NEW RULE:

No more stupid inferences that suggest that the relative quality of EMD and GE products designed in the 1960s has ANYTHING TO DO with the relative quality of EMD and GE products of today. One has nothing to do with the other, and is about as meaningful as saying that the relative quality of a 1968 Chevy and a 1968 Toyota has something to do with the relative quality of TODAY's Chevys and Toyotas. Duh!

GM = Generally Mediocre...even IF GM is a leader in R&D, they can't manage to get all that R&D to be reflected in the quality of their products. GM has too many accountants and not enough engineers, and the accountants are the ones holding the power positions for the most part. The SD40-2s people who are EMDphiles love to crow about were designed in the 1960s, back when GM was on top of the marketplace. Coincidence? I submit it is not. The decline of EMD's products is similar to the decline of GM's automobiles, which despite all of GM's resources still manage to be mediocre. UP MADE EMD strip out all the technology from the SD70s when they placed that big order, because EMD's electronic stuff was crap. Notice no "stripper" GE models were received by UP? Why do you suppose that is? Because GE's technology actually functions reliably! Oh, and UP got a good "financing deal" from EMD to induce that big order too...sounds just like GM in the car business - make a mediocre product and dump it on the market with INCENTIVES.

As for the hoghead contingent who talk about their "preferences" as being some indicator of "quality" let's get serious...engineers are resistant to change, and engineers trained to run on mostly EMD products who are used to their handling characteristics are of course going to frown upon learning how to handle locomotives that respond differently. As a new generation of engineers who trains on and runs primarily GE products comes up through the ranks, they'll not have the same biases. More to the point, railroads don't give a rat's hindquarters about anything but the train operating reliably, and that has nothing to do with what the engineer "prefers," it has to do with what locomotive does the job day in and day out. The best locomotive by that standard today is not made by EMD folks, it's made by GE. Case in point: BNSF yanked its SD75Ms from its hot intermodal trains due to reliability problems, while those assignments are held without issue by their massive fleet of C44-9Ws. The only reason Santa Fe (and later BNSF) ever ordered any of the SD75Ms/SD75Is in the first place was because a GM person got onto the Santa Fe's board of directors (and they also loudly announced their displeasure about the trainloads of GM autos being hauled by GE diesels, since the ATSF held most of the GM contracts at that point). Again, product falls short of competition, find ways to dump it on less-than-enthusiastic buyers. It's been the GM way for decades. EMD wasn't sold because it was competing effectively, GM knew they'd been whipped.

 #176200  by Nasadowsk
 
<i>Because GE's technology actually functions reliably! </i>

That's one thing GE has in it's favor, with everything they make. Run it by the book, it works...

That said, at least in the realm of passenger locos, neither GE nor GM make anything worth buying. Then again, MPI gets sales 'because that's what they bought in Chicago'. One day, Bombardier or someone else will make a big push for the US passenger diesel market, and that'll be yet another segment ceeded to the rest of the world. Heck, there hasn't been a US designed/built* electric in the last 25 or so years....

It gets better, too. One day, in the next 10 years, you'll wake up and see a big order for freight power going to some overseas firm. With no EMD to keep pressure on GE, they'll stop innovating, and get their butt handed to them by someone else. Maybe Bombardier, maybe some Chinese firm...

*No, EMD had nothing to do with the AEM-7 beyond assembling them from ASEA's kits. It's an ASEA locomotive, ASEA design, ASEA components. Anyone could have put it together, just that EMD had a partnership with ASEA at the time...
 #176317  by pablo
 
I thought I would add my useless opinion here as well; I posted something similar someplace else, and I don't remember when or where, but so you know, before you read...I have NO knowledge about the abilities of the GE vs. EMD debate. I work for a railroad that is completely dedicated to ALCO's, so I can't say one is better than the other.

My comments are about what EMD (or Greenbriar) might do now.

Obviously, they'll focus substantially on what they've been doing that's profitable. Six-axle locomotives, etc.

Now that GE has decided to go with Hybrids, EMD might do the same, but there are some important things to consider here.

1) The Railpower concept is important for more than just the efficiency and emissions angle. Greenbriar's CEO (I just looked for quotes and couldn't find any...I'll keep looking) mentioned specifically that the Goats demonstrate that there's a market for switchers still, a market that EMD could fill. It might need to be cheaper, etc... But it could be a focus in the near future. NRE has recently sold a small center cab switcher to UP. I'd love to know if anyone knows more about them.

2) Continued work on their own hybrid? Perhaps...but what is the market for the ones GE is constructing?

Dave Becker

 #176371  by AmtrakFan
 
Problem is Amtrak GE's are considered a Piece of S*** by many Enginners that work for them they take for ever to start up, reboot etc.

 #176413  by XBNSFer
 
Speaking of switchers, and for that matter power for branches and locals, one would think that market has to develop at some point soon. RRs are doing much less in the way of rebuild programs, EPA emmissions regs are making rebuilds economically unfeasable anyway, and the old 4 axle power is not going to last forever. Seems like a potential opportunity...