VIA's proposed new corridor bypasses most existing locations

[mdvle]

The new rail line VIA wants to build will travel north of the existing CN based corridor

http://www.thewhig.com/2017/07/20/via-c ... rail-route

[mtuandrew]

A) doesn’t this directly conflict with the new Montreal REM system? I can’t tell if there’s a railroad that circumvents the Mount Royal Tunnel.
B) looks pretty, as in “pretty low intermediate ridership between Petersborough and Ottawa.”
C) that said, you should be able to do >100 mph over most of the route.

[NH2060]

A) doesn’t this directly conflict with the new Montreal REM system? I can’t tell if there’s a railroad that circumvents the Mount Royal Tunnel.

Not for the Toronto/Ottawa-Montreal segment since it appears the route between Dorion and Montreal will either use the existing ROW on CN or AMT/RTM trackage or build new tracks alongside.

For Quebec City yes the tunnel is out of the equation. However, and this might be a stretch, but VIA could possibly route all Montreal-Quebec City "north shore" trains along the same route as the Jonquière and Senneterre (though they would still need to navigate through the CN/CP? yards west of the city) to Repentigny.

B) looks pretty, as in “pretty low intermediate ridership between Petersborough and Ottawa.”

WIth the frequencies and top speeds proposed don't think folks in the region looking to relocate won't want to move to Smiths Falls, etc. for the better rail service. TOD projects will spring up pretty quickly I'm sure.

C) that said, you should be able to do >100 mph over most of the route.

It does indeed appear to be relatively straight in sections and with all the undeveloped land along the ROW widening curves for 125-150mph operations should be easy enough. I trust that VIA would want to build the new line with provisions in place for eventual 200mph service should electrification and true high speed trains come into play.

[electricron]

From the first link of this thread,,,,
“A new passenger route would benefit communities along the existing Via route, Diaby added.
"For the existing routes, residents along the Toronto-Kingston-Montreal-Quebec corridor will see improved scheduling and service tailored to their community's needs," Diaby wrote.”

How can a new route 10-20 miles away help run more trains on the CN owned route where CN limits passenger trains?
I’m waiting on an explanation to clarify this!

[marquisofmississauga]

From the first link of this thread,,,,
“A new passenger route would benefit communities along the existing Via route, Diaby added.
"For the existing routes, residents along the Toronto-Kingston-Montreal-Quebec corridor will see improved scheduling and service tailored to their community's needs," Diaby wrote.”

How can a new route 10-20 miles away help run more trains on the CN owned route where CN limits passenger trains?
I’m waiting on an explanation to clarify this!

I don't interpret "improved scheduling and service" as necessarily meaning more trains. At present on Mondays to Fridays there are six Toronto-Montreal trains each way, 10 Toronto-Ottawa and one Toronto-Kingston. With the fast trains on the new line, I think there will be fewer trains needed to maintain local service to Brockville, Kingston, Belleville, etc. but they could be spaced better than they are now and with a little luck they might be a bit faster and run on time.

[mdvle]

The ultimate goal for the current VIA CEO is I believe to eliminate the need for an operating subsidy.

I can't see how running duplicate trains on duplicate lines between Toronto - Montreal (or Toronto - Ottawa) isn't going to achieve that unless there is enormous untapped ridership.

I would be interested to know what the corridor ridership breaks down as - is it 75% or more strictly Montreal <> Ottawa <> Toronto passengers or do the intermediate stations provide significant customers?

If (and it is an if) VIA gets the okay to build this new line and can find someone willing to provide the money then VIA will need to run a fairly extensive service on that line in order to pay the "lease" fees - thus any customers who aren't interested in Belleville, Brockville, Kingston, etc. will take the (presumably) faster new route.

Is there really enough ridership from those stations to justify any reasonable level of service on the old route? Or is that maybe what VIA is keeping those old RDC's for?

[NH2060]

I would think that there most definitely is a litany of untapped ridership to fill trains on the old and new routes. The existing schedule is so meager for a corridor such as Toronto-Kingston/Ottawa-Montreal (even the NEC from New York to Boston has 2-3x the number of trains in each direction) that many folks probably opt to drive or fly instead. If the trains were faster, on time, and more frequent -not 150 mph HSR, but even just 110-125 mph "Brightlines" don't think passenger numbers wouldn't shoot like a rocket. It worked for the New York-Boston NEC back in the early 2000s where the number of trains doubled and ridership has grown ever since to the point that demand for additional Acela service, not Regional service, has resulted in plans to add another 5 Acela/Avelia Liberty RTs by 2030, barring any moveable bridge restrictions by the USCG.

[Mark0f0]

Would CN/CP services be barred from VIA's corridor? Wouldn't VIA have to let CN/CP use its facilities to repay use of its network, particularly outside of the corridor?

Is there any realistic way that VIA could keep a VIA-owned corridor dedicated to VIA operations? Given that such a corridor might have some reciprocal appeal for high-speed freight services in the Corridor?

If a freight customer on or near the proposed VIA line wants freight service, is there any way for VIA to prevent such entity from being served with a CN or CP train? Would VIA get into the freight business to move those cars?

And if the whole thing does prove to be profitable, does VIA have any statutory monopoly on passenger services? Could they exclude CN/CP from offering competing services?

Anyone know how many train miles VIA does outside the Corridor? I get 16,800 miles/week for The Canadian, 5400 miles/week for the Skeena, another 5400 miles/week for the Ocean. Add in the other regionals and we're probably talking 30,000 miles/week on non-corridor CN/CP. Montreal-Toronto is 350 miles, so do the math, CN/CP may very well be entitled to 13 daily trips on the VIA corridor just to even things out.

[andrewjw]

Would CN/CP services be barred from VIA's corridor? Wouldn't VIA have to let CN/CP use its facilities to repay use of its network, particularly outside of the corridor?

Is there any realistic way that VIA could keep a VIA-owned corridor dedicated to VIA operations? Given that such a corridor might have some reciprocal appeal for high-speed freight services in the Corridor?

If a freight customer on or near the proposed VIA line wants freight service, is there any way for VIA to prevent such entity from being served with a CN or CP train? Would VIA get into the freight business to move those cars?

And if the whole thing does prove to be profitable, does VIA have any statutory monopoly on passenger services? Could they exclude CN/CP from offering competing services?

Anyone know how many train miles VIA does outside the Corridor? I get 16,800 miles/week for The Canadian, 5400 miles/week for the Skeena, another 5400 miles/week for the Ocean. Add in the other regionals and we're probably talking 30,000 miles/week on non-corridor CN/CP. Montreal-Toronto is 350 miles, so do the math, CN/CP may very well be entitled to 13 daily trips on the VIA corridor just to even things out.

Does Amtrak have to let any freight carrier in the nation run over the NEC 100 times a day? Absolutely not! I don't see why they would be 'entitled' to some kind of reciprocal trackage. There's no such agreement today: I'd expect today's agreement (in which VIA gets to use CN/CP tracks for, presumably, cash) to continue indefinitely, perhaps even cheaper since they will send fewer corridor trains.

[Mark0f0]

Does Amtrak have to let any freight carrier in the nation run over the NEC 100 times a day?

Freight carriers routinely run over the NEC to serve customers who are only accessible through rails attached to the NEC tracks. Its mostly scheduled in off-hours, but to say that NEC tracks are truly dedicated to passenger ops is simply not true. 100 times daily might not be that far off of the truth, BTW.

Absolutely not! I don't see why they would be 'entitled' to some kind of reciprocal trackage.

For access to shippers and industry that will inevitably exist or already exists along the proposed VIA corridor, for example.

There's no such agreement today: I'd expect today's agreement (in which VIA gets to use CN/CP tracks for, presumably, cash) to continue indefinitely, perhaps even cheaper since they will send fewer corridor trains.

VIA doesn't really have any tracks of their own to share, so the railways really have no leverage to obtain the use of VIA owned facilities (because there are none!). But if they start building infrastructure, then there almost certainly will be demands to use, much as VIA has imposed the burden of their operations on the freight railways over the years.

Why would CN/CP invest more in Corridor infrastructure development if they could, for example, simply pay VIA for incremental access at below market rates, much like VIA accesses CN/CP facilities at beneath cost as well? Could VIA really get away with denying CN/CP access to their high speed property, while demanding access to CN/CP's lines outside the corridor on below-market terms? Just doesn't add up to me.

[mtuandrew]

The route uses CP Rail tracks through Peterborough (currently managed by the Kawartha Lakes Railway.) I could see them (CP and their internal Kawartha Lakes team) offering to trade Toronto-Petersborough ownership to VIA in exchange for freight rights over the entire Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal route.

[mdvle]

According to this report (by Transport Action) VIA intends to build its own tracks parallel to the existing CP tracks on those parts of the route that CP still uses.

https://www.transportaction.ca/wp-conte ... eb2016.pdf

As for CN or CP using the route, I would guess it depends.

The obvious problem is that the freight would need to fit between the passenger trains, which would likely mean both shorter trains and faster trains than what they are typically used to now.

It would also depend on what exactly VIA is planning to build. Will it be entirely double track, or will it be single track with passing sidings? That will determine the capacity of the line and the ability or not to handle additional trains.

[mtuandrew]

mdvle: has the VIA plan changed since that report was finalized in 2015? Plenty of freight operates in 110mph territory in the United States, both Class 1 and shortline like Kawartha Lakes.

If their internal plan doesn’t include at least double track all the way, I’d be stunned.

[mdvle]

No idea regarding VIA's plans, those are the only 2 sources I have found that discuss it at all.

While I also would hope it would all be double track I only brought up the idea of single track because:

a) have no idea the type of frequency VIA is planning - depending on how many trains are on the line at any time it could be more cost effective to have some single track sections

b) given that they intend to parallel some of CP's trackage, would there be sufficient space to add 2 additional tracks.

c) some related to b), but might there be other parts of the route where they can't get enough land for 2 tracks depending on what may have happened since it was abandoned.

As for the freight issue, I was more replying to the idea that CN, CP, or even some 3rd party, might view the new line as attractive for moving stuff Toronto <-> Montreal and not some local freights. In which case the freight train would need to be fast enough to not get in the way of the passenger trains (interesting thought, if the new line could be faster than a truck on the 401 would parcel services be interested in an RDC type of unit to move smaller amounts of freight - I suspect the costs wouldn't work but who knows).

[mdvle]

Does anyone know how much local freight there is on the exisiting CN corrider (ie in Brockville, Kingston, etc and not the GTA or Montreal suburbs)?