Status of the GP7s and GP9s

[Tim Mullins]

Glad to see those 200's go! Especialy the 210...That thing leaked more oil than the BP oil spill!

[161pw165]

Please take everything you see on Railpace with a grain of salt. The 35's and the 6-axles were destined to be cut up months ago. As they say, pics or it didn't happen......

[KSmitty]

Roster man, Bill Gingrich just posted a new roster on GRS yahoo group.

He lists 12 and 15 as one of many cut up between December 2010 and March 2011. Others include, as said before, many 200's and all the "old" six packs except 643.

Again, no pictures...

[guilfordrailfan]

I did not see the Railpace information prior to seeing it posted here so I won't comment on that, except to say that ST 210 was still in the Waterville deadline as of 3/27/11, not scrapped.
(Edited for clarity)

[161pw165]

According to Jack Armstrong on page 36 of the April 2011 issue of railpace

Waterville deadline:

12
15
45
54
62
207
212
214
300
301
302
303
308
318
320
342
346
500
509
513
621
643
681
690

Cannot be found and might have been scrapped:

203
204
205
208
209
210

From prior page.

[thebigham]

Why would they cut them up if they were still working recently?

Why not just sell them?

[mec 381]

Cannot be found and might have been scrapped:
203
204
205
208
209

These locomotives have definitely been scrapped which leaves only four GP35's now. In fact I didn't realize 210 may still be there because I never saw it when I listed what was in the deadline a month ago. I doesn't surprise me though that 12 & 15 may have been scrapped along with 681, however I can't imagine 621 or 690 already being scrapped. Last I knew people wanted to preserve them. I am glad to see that nothing has made the deadline, now if only a few of those GP40's would be fixed up.

[KSmitty]

Why would they cut them up if they were still working recently?

Why not just sell them?

Honestly the 200's were all in bad shape. Most of them hit the lines because they broke. They were doomed, pretty much from the day they arrived to see no major repair work.

The 621, 43 and 90 ran as recently as a year ago, but even then were in rough shape and were pretty much gone, being useless above about 10mph...

The GP7's well, they are old, face it Maine Central got good use out of them for 30 years before GTI was in the picture. Guilford has been beating them for 30 years now. They are too big to use as a shop switcher (thats what the SW-1's are for) so their last real haunt is no longer safe turf. Scrapping is logical, you can have the money immediately rather than waiting for a buyer, and scrap prices are super high right now, so it was a good time.

As much as I hate to say it, the torch was coming, and I doubt the 9's and maybe even a few of the 40's (513 comes to mind) are far behind. Scrap is pricey and PAR is investing in itself of late, so some extra cash is always good to have, especially now.

Edit---
Jeff, the 690 was pretty well parted out almost a year ago now, and the 621/43 were not far behind. They wanted 25K for the frame and carbody of the 690, anything of any value was long gone, thats a steep price for a preservation outfit, seeing that the unit was mostly gone.

[Tim Mullins]

Any good railroad could take anyone of those engines and rebuilt them...A perfect example is the Wheeling and lake Erie who got the same GP-35's from N/S, brought them to their shop in Ohio and rebuilt them from the wheels on up...
Waterville has a realy good shop with alot of talent that can do the same if it wern't for a company that is so bent on self distruction....They don't overhaul engines because they would have to bring them up to current FRA,Tier1,Tier2 EPA and allthe other Government regulation....This is why they buy used white lined junk,put in a gallon of fuel and tell you to run it.

[KSmitty]

Any good railroad could take anyone of those engines and rebuilt them...A perfect example is the Wheeling and lake Erie who got the same GP-35's from N/S, brought them to their shop in Ohio and rebuilt them from the wheels on up...
Waterville has a realy good shop with alot of talent that can do the same if it wern't for a company that is so bent on self distruction....They don't overhaul engines because they would have to bring them up to current FRA,Tier1,Tier2 EPA and allthe other Government regulation....This is why they buy used white lined junk,put in a gallon of fuel and tell you to run it.

Tim, I obviously don't have the railroad experience you do and I respect your opinion especially because of your history in the business, but the W&LE is phasing out those GP35's in favor of 40 series power (if I understand correctly). And honestly, why pay to completely rebuild a GP35 (W&LE, again if I understand correctly, worked out a sale and lease back agreement with the rebuilder in order to fund the rebuild, there is nothing cheap about a ground up rebuild) when for less than $100,000 you can replace it with an SD40 series locomotive. The benefits are obvious, 500 extra ponies, 8-10 years newer (plus many of the recently acquired are M's or -3's so they have been ground up rebuilt more recently than manufacture) they have almost 100% shared parts inventory with a GP40, and from a purely crew view point they are six packs that should ride nice, and they all have low noses.

Those GP35's were purchased in a pinch as placeholders for the leaving BM GP40-2's, I was never really sure how 16 35's could replace 17 40-2's. They served their purpose, got GRS/PAR through to more 40 series power and deserved to die, being full of electrical bugs (as all 35's were) and just tired from 45 years of service, 15 of which they saw just about no maintenance because they were misfits on the GRS roster. The fact that they made it this far is rather impressive to me.

Personally I see the move to cut up old deadline engines right now as a smart one, scrap prices are high, their is newer power on the railroad and some of them have been dead for a while.

On a semi related note, do rebuilt locomotives have to comply with current EPA restrictions or is Tier-0 the requirement?

[Tim Mullins]

I don't argue your point as far as age, scrap prices and all...That stuff was purchased before I got there...I went over from Amtrak in 1997...The problem with the company is that they never had any type of maintenance program...When engines are out of service and stored for what ever reason,while they were sitting around collecting dust and four legged creatures and used for parts,could have been going through an overhaul process...Just to get a working clean toilet was an act of God...How many times I was threatened with a hearing or termination for taking engines out of service because of FRA defects when I would try to tell the VP of mechanical that I wasn't trying to screw the company, I couldn't afford the FRA fines...I know about the Wheeling and Lake Erie when they got those engines (GP35's) because out of frustration I called and talked with the head of Locomotive Maintenance and talked about our situation. I know that engines being rebuilt have to be up to current regulation specs, but I'm not familiar with the the legal terminology. What ever FRA guide lines are inplace, which brings up another point where our engines were allowed to run around spewing smoke and puking oil out the stacks when maybe some rings and new injectors would help them run better...Once I was working the Portsmouth switcher the engine wouldn't run because of a clogged fuel filter...The maintainer took the filter out and threw it on the engine room floor...Just a small example!....Did you work for Guilford at all?

[KSmitty]

I did a little poking around the net, apparently, locomotives in historic service (steamers) and units with manufacture dates before 1973 are excused from EPA regs when rebuilt. Any unit built from 73-current when rebuilt must meet EPA Tier 0+ standards, unless, the unit was manufactured to higher standards (when an ES44AC goes in for complete rebuild it must meet Tier 2 because it was manufactured at that level).

You can buy kits to meet T0+ standards from NRE, Helm and others. Though I couldn't find a price (theres a surprise...) That means that all GP40's, 35's, 7's and 9's are eligable for rebuild. Also, the lone SD40 on the roster and some of the M's are eligable, as long as they were manufactured before 73, at no additional expense (beyond shop work) to the railroad. Hasn't Pan Am recently started a GP40 rebuild program of some sort?
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/nonroad/loc ... f99037.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/oms/standards/nonroa ... otives.htm

Tim,
No I have never worked for Pan Am/Guilford, its hard for me to work for a railroad, the whole 17 years old thing kinda throws a wrench in that idea...

[Tim Mullins]

Hi Kevin....Thanks for the info on EPA regs....You are in a good time and age where if you wanted to work on the railroad, it can be a good carreer move....I know in some of my comments that I put P/A down alot....It's just from experience of working for a company that just doesn' care and I don't want to discourage you because there are alot of good companies out there and I wish you luck...There just isn't much here in New England. Hopefully that will change!
Good Luck!

[newpylong]

Tim you are definitely right about the rebuilds. 4 axle power is definitely in demand right now, and there is a surplus of used 6 axle power. Whether anyone is going to spend that kind of money to rebuild a GP35, who knows... like you said, they probably figured they would see a better return on scrap vs rebuild. In the end it is probably the smarter thing to do. Send the 40's up to Maine to replace the 35's/9's and keep buying used 6 packs for the Mainline. It wouldn't hurt them to splurge a little and buy some non rentawreck used units, such as some NS C40-8's. They had hundreds of them sitting.

[BR4]

"It wouldn't hurt them to splurge a little and buy some non rentawreck used units, such as some NS C40-8's. They had hundreds of them sitting."

Except that PAR is looking to standardize their fleet to EMD 645 powered units. One of the reasons they decommissioned the 35's, whixh are 567 powered.