SPECULATIVE BNSF & NS MERGER (RUMORS/DISCUSSION HERE)

[Komachi]

Okay, kids,

Since this seems to be a popular topic with the members of this forum, I have started this thread to serve as a place to post any facts, rumors or other speculative bits that you'd like to share with everyone.

Please note that any further speculation in previous threads on this topic will be met with a lock and any new threads on this topic will be locked and deleted with extreme predjudice (see the rule on REDUNDANT THREADS for more info. on this subject).


Now, with that having been said, feel free to let the (mis)information fly freely.


EDIT: Note, there is NO proposed BNSF and NS merger at this point in time, however unfounded rumors and other speculation have been tossed about on the boards here (and there are some who would argue that there is, indeed a merger in the works) and this thread will serve as a place to discuss and debunk (or support) said rumors.

[Engineer James]

Erik> Thanks for posting the sticky. And yeah, there also have been A LOT of BNSF Units on the CSX Toldeo Sub, and the NS Sub nearby. as I posted last time, there are about 5 bnsf units 3 GE's and 2 Geeps (Yes, i was suprised) sitting in the NS yard at wayne since April. They have been running with either a High Hood NS Geep or another GE, however, its just speculation.

[Komachi]

It has been stated in a previous discussion that the BNSF units were there as part of a "trade off" between BNSF and NS for leasing agreements between the two, as they each owe the other X amount of hours for power swaps.

In the cases above, I think it's merely a case of NS and CSXT borrowing BNSF units for either a power shortage, or BNSF paying back time for any NS/CSXT units they leased.


Is there a BNSF interchange nearby? Could it be that BNSF just keeps it's units there for servicing/storage? Although, if they've been running with NS units, then they're probably a lease/reciprocation deal, as explained above.

[Engineer James]

Erik> The Only "Interchange" I know of is in Toledo. The BNSF Route Runs no more than 500 ft. From the CSX Toledo sub. I see Heritage BN Units there all the time sitting at the Signal Bridge waiting for the "green". Long trains of coal too. But, as far as I know, neither line has an interchange into one another in that area....

Well, maybe some BNSF Employee can answer this: How many of U have been running NS equipment? Or even CSX equipment recently. Maybe Eric, hwta each corperation is thinking: "we each owe each other Loans for locomotive power, lets combine.

*Wait* Just thought, what if they DID come together? What would be the Name? BNS("squared")F? *Just some Food for thought*

[Komachi]

No...

I don't believe that would happen. Just having deficits with other railroads in leased power hours is not enough of a motivating factor to spur on a merger. There has to be some rather large rewards to reap by merging, such as faster routes to select markets or access to markets that they would not have otherwise.

As for the new name... I think they'd just leave it as BNSF, with the NS meaning whatever you want. Maybe they'd come up with a whole new name that has nothing to do with Burlington Northern Santa Fe Norfolk Southern.

[Engineer James]

Erik> Maybe your right. However, there is ONE MARKET to gain from.... COAL. We must remember NS has some of the more used of the ex-C&O coal routes. CSX has the REALLY Good ones though such as the New River Sub though. BNSF really has a grasp on the Powder River Basin along side Union Pacific, so u know, if they really wanted to NS would be a good market for the eastern coal market, as well as CSX. Also aren't there many natrural gas fields in BOTH places (Virginia's and the Powder River basin)? Just a thought.

[gprimr1]

Would this be a good or bad thing for Amtrak? I've noticed that the Empire Builder does very well, perhaps they could improve trains that run on NS tracks.

[Engineer James]

NS, and Wick Moorman especially I hear HATES Amtrak, don't know why. Maybe (Not to offend any Amtrak lovers) its because especially here With Michigan Service they are late. #324 ran almost 1 hour late due to a bad crew change in Jackson....

[joshuahouse]

Its odd, I've recently moved from NS territory to adjacent to the BNSF main across Arizona and while you would occasionally see BNSF units on the Southern Tier line in NY well over half the trains I've seen out here have had NS power on them. Whats REALLY weird is that I've not seen any of the new "speed lettering" on locomotives out here but saw them on a fairly regular basis back east.

As to a merger while its an interesting theory I'll believe it when I see it.

[Yonge]

*Wait* Just thought, what if they DID come together? What would be the Name? BNS("squared")F? *Just some Food for thought*

I'd vote for Burlington, Norfolk, & Santa Fe.

[Engineer James]

Josh, thanks for shedding some light. That is odd though, isn't it> we will have to wait and see....

[Komachi]

Again, I will point out that mixed power does not necesserily mean a merger is in the works.

What I think is going on (and what someone pointed out in another thread), is that rather than cutting and adding power at their respective transfer points, BNSF and NS keep their units on the point of the transcontinental trains, so that they can run from one coast to the other with as little "down time" as possible.


So, I'm not buying any theories based on shared power.


As for Amtrak... I don't know what it would mean for them, I guess it would depend on who was in the administration of the new, merged, road. But, let's discuss that at a later time...

[Engineer James]

Erik> U know that is a good point... It would save loads of time, and effort. However, we must look at Santa Fe and Burlington Northern merger.... since that is the most recent... What were signs of that?

Or even if we theink about it the Proposed SP and SF merger, were they painted all thos elocos and it never happened....

[Komachi]

Actually, James, the BN/SF and UP/C&NW mergers both happened in 1995, although, the latter was a little more obvious. However, you're neglecting the CSXT and NS absorption of Conrail and CN acquiring BC Rail in the past few years.


But I digress...


While the C&NW had been steadily improving financially, it was still debt ridden. The writing was on the wall and it was just a question of time before the UP bought it up (as some have mockingly noted on the forums, UP: "We Devour"). Mostly for access to the Powder River Basin and Chicago facilities, if I remember correctly (after 10 years, the mind blurs details, and I was more concerned with preparing myself for college than focusing on a pending railroad merger at that time in my life).

As for BN and SF, I can't remember what their reasons were for merging, I think it was because neither could compete with UP on their own and each had routes and markets that would make the new entity more of a force to be reckoned with. I'll have to go back and look in my back issues of Trains to see what was written there.

And yes, many still laugh at the "(whoops!) Shouldn't Paint So Fast" "Kodachrome" paint scheme applied to units when SP and SF jumped the gun on the merger.


But, that's not happening here. Some have said that the new BNSF logo script looks suspiciously similar to the NS font, but that is just a coincidence in my book. I'm not putting any money on any mergers just quite yet.

[U-Haul]

I heard the Atchison Topeka Santa Fe was surrounded by Burlington Northern so a merger made "sense". How would 10,000 plus locomotives be renumbered oher than having the Norfolk Southern units keep their reporting marks?