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  • New Interview; Mr. Anderson/NPR

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1526877  by gokeefe
 
Another read of the tea leaves from the interview .... The Empire Builder and the Coast Starlight are both probably in line for upgrades in the near future. These are the two routes which hold the greatest potential for "experiential" travel.

I also found it notable that he addressed new equipment purchases for the transcontinental Long Distance trains. It would be very interesting to see what new equipment from Siemens or another manufacturer would look like.
 #1526879  by lordsigma12345
 
gokeefe wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:34 pm Another read of the tea leaves from the interview .... The Empire Builder and the Coast Starlight are both probably in line for upgrades in the near future. These are the two routes which hold the greatest potential for "experiential" travel.

I also found it notable that he addressed new equipment purchases for the transcontinental Long Distance trains. It would be very interesting to see what new equipment from Siemens or another manufacturer would look like.
Those plus California Zephyr.
 #1526880  by lordsigma12345
 
mtuandrew wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:38 pm LD trains are concatenated corridors as much as, if not more than, pure end-to-end transportation (Auto Train excepted.) I feel like that’s the one piece that Anderson hasn’t fully grasped, though he is spot-on elsewhere.

The Sunset Limited has been underperforming for years, and he is the only CEO who looks brave enough to try to hang the Adios drumhead. At the least, New Orleans-Houston is likely gone; I could readily see Houston-San Antonio and San Antonio-El Paso as daily corridors feeding the Texas Central HSR system. (And could also see Arizona simply opting out of passenger rail to Tucson.)
I could see New Orleans to Houston gone and Corridors beteeen those cities as you mentioned. If he had gotten his way on the Chief, I think that would have been accompanied by running the Texas Eagle on the western part of the sunset route daily to maintain CHI-LAX. With the resistance to cutting the Chief, now I’m not so sure.
 #1526882  by mtuandrew
 
He might still offer to run the Texas Eagle through, and Arizona might still decline. CHI-ELP could be the sum total of that train, because I don’t see Texas giving up the chance to have a rail connection across its wide expanses.

If the UP hadn’t closed its direct line west from Phoenix, Amtrak might be correspondingly more popular in Arizona. That line is also a growth opportunity should Virgin Trains decide they want a piece of the PHX-LAX market - I don’t see Amtrak or the state being willing to pay UP’s price, but I do see a private corporation being willing to work with Omaha.
 #1526890  by lordsigma12345
 
mtuandrew wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:22 pm He might still offer to run the Texas Eagle through, and Arizona might still decline. CHI-ELP could be the sum total of that train, because I don’t see Texas giving up the chance to have a rail connection across its wide expanses.

If the UP hadn’t closed its direct line west from Phoenix, Amtrak might be correspondingly more popular in Arizona. That line is also a growth opportunity should Virgin Trains decide they want a piece of the PHX-LAX market - I don’t see Amtrak or the state being willing to pay UP’s price, but I do see a private corporation being willing to work with Omaha.
By Arizona refusing the cost I am assuming you mean the added fees UP would want for replacing the thrice weekly sunset from San Antonio to LAX with a daily Texas eagle?
 #1526891  by lordsigma12345
 
I think somethings going to get proposed for the crescent route too. I think the overnight train with sleepers is going to get truncated to NYP-ATL accompanied by some additional corridor service in that area between some of the major cities. Whether the plan would continue some type of bare bones day train between Atlanta and New Orleans well have to see.
 #1526894  by gokeefe
 
I think there would be significant Congressional resistance to any curtailment of the Crescent.

The Texas Eagle is already a Long Distance services with a route exceeding 750 miles (even just CHI-SAS). The Eagle could very well be extended to ELP with the Sunset Limited cut entirely. LA and TX could decide for themselves if they were willing to fund a service between NOL and SAS.

Perhaps a return of the name Sunbeam (once SP #13/14 daily between Dallas/FW and Houston) would be a good fit for that service (nice that it also implies daytime service).
 #1526897  by JoeG
 
There are two issues in this thread. One is Mr Anderson's intentions regarding LD trains, and the other is his alleged attempt to make Amtrak less unprofitable.
As far as LD trains go, Amtrak has done what SP did in the fifties: Made its LD trains so crummy and undependable that it isn't a big step to see them gone. We really can't say how ridership on LD trains would be if the trains ran at reasonable speed, were comfortable and dependable, and had appropriate amenities. ( The experiment with the Silver Star shows that even on a train people are unwilling to pay steakhouse prices for food that would be rejected at an Applebees. They chose the no-diner and save the money option.)
Mr Anderson has the job of selling the reduction of LD services, and he seems quite adept at this.
Of course, no one can make Amtrak profitable. Why does anyone think that the US can have a profit making passenger rail system. No other country does. Convenient, useful rail passenger service should be part of our basic set of services, like highways, police, fire departments, etc. None of these services are expected to make a profit.
Maybe it turns out that long distance train service has outlived its usefulness, but I'd like to see well-run, up-to-date service that runs on time with reasonable speed tried before we give up on it. And, undoubtedly a set of corridor services for short and medium distances makes a lot of sense but I don't see Mr Anderson doing anything to implement them. I have no actual evidence that he has any interest whatever in improving Amtrak's service. The one good thing he seemed to be doing was publicizing the poor service the Class Is provided Amtrak trains, but I haven't heard much recently on this initiative. If I've missed anything, someone please enlighten me.
 #1526939  by Tadman
 
gokeefe wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:03 pm For those who are watching and think they've seen this song and dance before ... My advice: "wake up and pay attention". Anderson's tone and content are dead on. He's a technical professional with clear experience in transportation who can readily make the case that he knows what he's talking about.
...
If you think for one second that this situation doesn't strongly imply termination of the Sunset Limited go ahead and think again. It has very poor patronage and is the most heavily subsidized of them all. Unlike the Empire Builder it has virtually no case whatsoever to be made that the route represents "essential" transportation to the communities it serves.
Your whole post is very good. I highlight these pieces because not only does the Sunset have "virtually no case whatsoever to be made that the route represents "essential" transportation to the communities it serves" but it hurts the essential transportation in those markets. Imagine if the required pool of equipment was shifted into corridor service between LA-Phoenix, Phoenix-Tucson, San Antonio-Houston, and Houston-NOLA. The longer and less-dense routes could be 1x/day, like NOLA and LA. Tucson and San Antonio could do 2-3X with the same trainsets ping-pong back and forth. The frequency and predictability and reliability would be through the roof, and so would the ridership.

In short, the use of $X to support the current Sunset is materially hurting the ability to provide essential transportation in the same markets.
 #1526940  by Tadman
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:46 am This is a new interview with Mr. Anderson and NPR. Apparently, it was aired December 2:

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/12 ... ceo-travel

I learned of this interview at another site, far more directed towards LD advocacy than are we around here. Here is a sampling of quotes taken from their discussion:
I hate to say this but I think he’s experiencing some type of cognitive decline. He seems absolutely clueless about all aspects of Amtrak
The untruths and brazenness is getting out of control. He also says, fly it’s cheaper and faster
Gads, he seems to be full of himself and destructive to passenger rail
Obviously, with my skepticism about any significant transportation value the LD's bring to the table beyond the WOOF's - Well Off Older People - who ride for the experience, I cannot agree with any of the captioned quotes.
Agreed completely with you, Mr. Norman. In most cases it is indeed cheaper and faster to fly, especially when one gets out of the Boston/NEC bubble that WBUR is in. Again we have the case where a bunch of left-leaning journalists from a very left-leaning area try to tell us all how it works. They're literally referring to facts as "untruths". This is why I quit NPR. Every article reads like an anti-Trump screed when they don't agree with someone. President Trump is repeatedly accused of untruths, brazenness, full of himself, congnitive decline, etc...

DO SOME REAL REPORTING FOR F*** SAKE. We all know the $X spent on long distance trains is not wisely spent.
 #1526969  by mtuandrew
 
Hah, National NPR has gotten more conservative of late. Seems like every other segment is asking its listeners to be sympathetic to a Trump voter in an Indiana diner. (The locally-produced NPR segments less so.) And as a former lawyer, do you want to get into the laws broken and Constitutional articles flouted by the administration - by their own admission? I agree that cognitive decline isn’t likely, because he’s always acted this way in public life. But we aren’t here to discuss Trump specifically, he doesn’t care about Amtrak unless it can make him money or make him look better.

The roadmap that Anderson is laying out might help American mobility. Some parts of the system don’t do much good that a bus couldn’t do faster and cheaper. Others could do a lot - Phoenix-Tucson-El Paso should be a winner - but they’re hobbled. I’d want to see a full LD-to-corridor plan laid out, to see that Amtrak has done its reasonably-nonpartisan homework.
lordsigma12345 wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:54 pmBy Arizona refusing the cost I am assuming you mean the added fees UP would want for replacing the thrice weekly sunset from San Antonio to LAX with a daily Texas eagle?
Exactly.
 #1526970  by lordsigma12345
 
mtuandrew wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:19 pm Hah, National NPR has gotten more conservative of late. Seems like every other segment is asking its listeners to be sympathetic to a Trump voter in an Indiana diner. (The locally-produced NPR segments less so.) And as a former lawyer, do you want to get into the laws broken and Constitutional articles flouted by the administration - by their own admission? I agree that cognitive decline isn’t likely, because he’s always acted this way in public life. But we aren’t here to discuss Trump specifically, he doesn’t care about Amtrak unless it can make him money or make him look better.

The roadmap that Anderson is laying out might help American mobility. Some parts of the system don’t do much good that a bus couldn’t do faster and cheaper. Others could do a lot - Phoenix-Tucson-El Paso should be a winner - but they’re hobbled. I’d want to see a full LD-to-corridor plan laid out, to see that Amtrak has done its reasonably-nonpartisan homework.
lordsigma12345 wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:54 pmBy Arizona refusing the cost I am assuming you mean the added fees UP would want for replacing the thrice weekly sunset from San Antonio to LAX with a daily Texas eagle?
Exactly.
I am hoping for a vision of reauthorization document that will present a long term goal to see what they are thinking that will evaluate each route separately (as each of the 15 routes has a very different situation). So far we really only know which routes they are going to leave as is - the Zephyr, Builder, Coast Starlight with experiential enhancements and most likely also the Auto Train (and these trains would probably get whatever sleepers are freed up from discontinuing any trains.) But we really don't what their vision is for the rest other than it seems like the Sunset Limited is the first focus. Hopefully they will put out a road map so people can actually form an opinion on the plan.
 #1526995  by ryanch
 
What do people make of the idea in the Downeaster thread that Amtrak recently advanced the idea of a Richmond-Maine train? If real, it sounds to me like a "new LD" in a sense, and may suggest that Anderson sees value in the network aspect of LD service in specific contexts, the most important of which, I would postulate, is the existence of the corridor as subliminal advertising. The problem for Amtrak is that in most places, even those with a daily train, Amtrak doesn't even come to mind for most people.

I'm agnostic on most existing LD service. I agree that it doesn't offer much value today except political value. I like Tadman's thinking outside the box about how to restructure that political support, but fear that people fight much harder not to lose what they have than to get something new. That constrains the political benefit of proposing new corridor trains in return for axing an LD.

More important, it's not clear to me that disconnected corridors build that rapidly into winners. Look at the Rail Runner in NM. Sleek, fast, reliable, and not that successful. A new San Antonio-Houston corridor strikes me as something like an attempt at social engineering.

My focus would be to figure out how to build out from the basis of existing corridors in places where train travel is already a solution people consider. Virginia is proving this strategy. The Richmond to Maine plan, if real, seems to suggest that Anderson or those around him understand that success and think it might apply in previously unthinkable places.

I think the challenge is where to find other existing network effects strong enough to build on. I've been trying to brainstorm such things - suggesting a Memphis extension of a Saluki, a weekend Wisconsin Dells extension of a Hiawatha. Not that my ideas are great. But the question I'm trying to ask is how do you build something like the NEC and its successful extensions in a new place. Chicago-St. Louis, -Milwaukee and -Carbondale is the strongest web between Richmond and the Sierra Nevadas, with the bonus of a large commuter rail system in the metropolis itself keeping train travel on the mental map. If you can't build on that, where can Amtrak possibly build?

In particular, how does Amtrak come to serve enough of the potential destinations from a given city that it gets "bookmarked" either figuratively, in people's minds, or literally in everyone's web browser? My sense is that in the NEC and its environs, Amtrak gets at least routine consideration from most travelers. Even those who regularly go by car think "there's Amtrak, but it wouldn't work for me because ..." Most people are aware that it could get them to many places they like to go. That's why Maine could work. You've got tens of millions of people on the NEC who would think to check the schedule, and you only need a few hundred thousand/year to make it work.

Outside the corridor, Amtrak only even gets attention from a small group of people who have a regular need to go to a particular destination. The Chicago hub overwhelmingly serves two kinds of patrons -- people from outlying places who go to Chicago often enough to realize it's a useful way to do so, and people in Chicago who routinely head somewhere else - students taking the Saluki, state workers & lobbyists ferrying to the capital.

Despite regular service in several directions, I would argue that the vast majority of Chicagoans, even those tens of thousands who take heavy rail 5 days a week, never even consider taking Amtrak anywhere. If you tell someone you took the train to Kansas City for a vacation, they take it as an endearing curiosity.

Real network effects are achieved at the point Amtrak becomes a "bookmark". Even in Chicago this is a challenge. Is there any conceivable way the metropolises of Texas would think that way anytime in the next 20 years? But how do you make a stand-alone service work, if most of the people who might head in that direction never even think to consider it?
 #1527001  by Matt Johnson
 
I never understood how a Fort Worth - Oklahoma City train could gain enough political support to become reality while Dallas - Houston remains a major corridor lacking passenger rail connections. I've spent some time in the DFW area over the years due to having a lot of family out there, and it's exploding and in desperate need of better transportation infrastructure. Same goes for Houston - I was there on business in March and had the displeasure of driving on that city's insane highway system. I'll be interested to see if the private Texas Central high speed venture manages to reach the construction phase, but certainly that region seems like a place where Amtrak might have some corridor expansion potential. To the north, Oklahoma City - Wichita - Kansas City looks to make sense on a map, but I don't know what kind of ridership potential exists there.

As an aside, when I attended my cousin's wedding in Dallas in 2015, I burned some Amtrak rewards points and traveled by Amtrak (Capitol Limited & Texas Eagle on the way out, Texas Eagle and Cardinal on the way back). So, there's an example of using the long distance network for a real transportation need as much as for the experience. (Let's be honest, I'd have taken the California Zephyr through the Rockies if I wanted a pure "experiential" land cruise. Sometimes it's nice when Amtrak actually takes you where you want to go!)