“Not allowed by law in the last car”

[Tadman]

It’s been another week on corridor trains, and another week of crappy to indifferent service. I hope they split this pig up and sell it to Donald trumps friends, you couldn’t do any worse.

Anyway, rant aside, we’ve got a full Wolverine and they just told us that “we cannot carry any passengers in the last car by law”. That is, of course, after they lined up 300+ people and funneled them through two doors. Perhaps next year they will import super-officious ex-Maduro regime employees to staff trains, really small time ones that are extra rude, from Venezuela to make this even less fun. Think of Fred Armisen playing a Venezuelan parks and rec official on that episode of “Parks and Rec” where they show up in full beribboned paramilitary uniforms.

What law is this? The only thing I can think of is crew to car ratio, but they could just say the car is a deadhead and has no crew. That would be too easy and, you know, honest.

You have to love a business that takes its biggest advocates and says “f*** you shut up and sit down and believe our lies”.

Better believe I’m back to South Shore next week. For all the anti-Indiana rhetoric lately, you’d think we don’t run 40 passenger trains daily in a far more efficient manner than the federales.

[STrRedWolf]

Where was this, and how many cars were on the train plus what crew? I can only think of a 1 conductor per 2 car rule, minimum two... although it could be state law/regulation or track owner rules and not Amtrak rules.

[jhdeasy]

I too have met my share of bad apples and sour apples among Amtrak employees, as a passenger since summer 1971 and a PV owner since spring 1987. Yet I have also encountered some that have been most helpful to me.

Is it possible that the rear car was closed and unoccupied because it had a defect and was being deadheaded to the shop? Perhaps an air conditioning failure on a hot summer day? Perhaps a plumbing failure with water or toilet waste sloshing about the floor?

Maybe opening that rear car to passengers would have triggered a requirement for an additional Assistant Conductor under the labor agreement, but none was assigned to the crew of that train. So the Conductor determined that compliance with those workplace agreements was more important than some degree of customer convenience.

[David Benton]

I hope they split this pig up and sell it to Donald trumps friends, you couldn’t do any worse.

Kim Jong Un, Putin , Bin Salman, or Bolsonaro ???

If they said it was by Law, presumably it would be or lack of a assistant conductor.And they mean Union law or agreement.

[scoostraw]

Only in AMERICA !!!!

[Railjunkie]

Crew size doesn't matter. I'm not up on the conductors agreement, I think if its either 6 or 7+ revenue coaches you need a third crew member. If there isn't you would file a claim with the company for a days pay I believe for the extra coach. End of story. The only way a crew could claim you couldn't sit in the last car would be if there were a brake issue on that car. If this was the originating terminal for the train it would be leaving without 100% operable brakes. Soo...

[Greg Moore]

This is yet another example of one of my ongoing rants about Amtrak: that many of their customer service issues really could be fixed by training.

On the Empire Service between ALB-NYP I've seen customer service that ranged from horrible to great. There's nothing inherent that prevents service personal from being better.

[JimBoylan]

The "law" in question is probably part of a union agreement or practice that a crew can choose where and how large their private space is. On New York area commuter trains, it's often the 1st 2 cars. There's a similar practice on ships where, as shown in a Saturday Evening Post comic, the capacity of a lifeboat is labeled as "28 Crew, 2 passengers".

[Railjunkie]

There is no union agreement or practice, however it is stated in the service manual that the crew shall take no more than one table in a cafe or a single seat in a coach and shall give that up if needed. Trains are loaded a certain way for a reason it is much easier to keep track and less chance of a carry by if stations are located in one or two cars. In the case of Empire service trains the front two cars are closest to the stairs or exit at either RHI or HUD. The last two cars are closer to the elevator and escalator in ALB. This practice has been going on for as long as I have been on the RR.

[Tadman]

I too have met my share of bad apples and sour apples among Amtrak employees, as a passenger since summer 1971 and a PV owner since spring 1987. Yet I have also encountered some that have been most helpful to me.

Totally agree. There are some saints out there, really hard working and kind guys and gals. I try to send a note every time to the website because I bet those people go unrecognized.

This is yet another example of one of my ongoing rants about Amtrak: that many of their customer service issues really could be fixed by training.

Absolutely, and this is what angers me so much. All we hear about is funding, lack of funding, lack of equipment... What a crock of crap. All we need is a laminated PDF that has one side with "little station boarding instructions" and the back side says "big/terminal station boarding instructions". Literally every station, train, and crew is different, leading to endless permutations, no predictability, and frustration. Costs $200 to print for the entire system and another $500 to distribute. Good talk.

This is why I believe more in privatisation every day. If Michigan were to open up the Detroit trains to multiple TOC's, say Virgin Trains and Serco, you can bet they would get their act right really quickly. The staff on Serco's Caledonian Sleeper is great, because they know you have a choice of Serco's sleeper, Virgin's day trains, British Air's commuter flights, and Ryanair's low cost flights.

[WesternNation]

I can tell you from experience that when management doesn’t appear to know what they’re doing, or what they’re doing doesn’t appear to be in the best interest of the company, employees tend to turn sour. My current CS job for college is just like that. You have some employees who work hard and try their best and then you have some who have such low morale because it seems like the company doesn’t care.

Amtrak is certainly going through some changes right now, and I’m wondering if maybe the operating employees are being told anything about what’s happening or what’s coming down the line, pardon the pun. Are the LDs going to exist in five years? Are there going to be large cuts to transportation staff? That sort of thing can seriously weigh down a person.

I can’t say for sure why the crew wouldn’t use the last car but I can say that the last time I rode out of Chicago, they designated cars/sections specifically for each stop. This appears to be the case on at least the Blue Water, as I’ve seen them open up the same set of doors again and again when in Kalamazoo.

[mtuandrew]

The phrase “by law” keeps coming back to me. Something that bad-orders a car but keeps it able to travel at track speed? A broken window or bad door maybe? HEP not working could be it too, though that wouldn’t be a “law” situation.

Maybe a group of sheriffs chartered the car, that would be “by law”

The single-point boarding, that’s just obnoxious.

[Gilbert B Norman]

I had a similar experience "back in the good old days". This involved the NKP.

To start, turn back to Xmas '61. I was going to ride the NKP-EL "New Yorker" which had a through Chi-Hob Sleeper - and on the NKP, Alco PA Bluebirds doing the tugging. Before heading East, I went out for a quick visit with then GF who lived in Cedar Rapids. I rode the MILW Arrow back to Chi. That was a "milk run" which didn't know what late meant.

Well, except that my date was the date it chose to be late. It arrived CUS 11A (sked 845A). At La Salle it was an "almost but not quite". Did I ever catch it from my Father; "why can't you just fly like everyone else does?"

So FF to Dec '62. #8 had been downgraded to Coach and Diner - and The Bluebirds had been replaced with Alco DL-701's.

There were four Coaches - two HW (nicely maintained) but straight back seats - and two LW (C&O style) that belonged to the crew and deadheading "pals".

GRRRRR!

I bailed out (planned) at Clev, to the NYC "Ohio State Limited"; even there. I had to listen to a business traveler saying "why must I submit to this kind of torture" - and this was on a Central premier train that arrived GCT "smack on".

So in short, "cram 'em in" so we can have "our" space is nothing new.

[ryanov]

Posts like this are no doubt why employees don't post much here anymore.

We should split up Amtrak and sell it to Trump's friends because... what? You couldn't ride in the last car? Sheesh.

[ThirdRail7]

Anyway, rant aside, we’ve got a full Wolverine and they just told us that “we cannot carry any passengers in the last car by law”. What law is this? The only thing I can think of is crew to car ratio, but they could just say the car is a deadhead and has no crew. That would be too easy and, you know, honest.

Um....I can think of many things that fall under CFR 238 causing this. Were you on 354 as I suspect?

The "law" in question is probably part of a union agreement or practice that a crew can choose where and how large their private space is. On New York area commuter trains, it's often the 1st 2 cars. There's a similar practice on ships where, as shown in a Saturday Evening Post comic, the capacity of a lifeboat is labeled as "28 Crew, 2 passengers".

Ooorrr, it could be a non complying car, under CFR part 238 (cliff notes enclosed) that was flat shifted to the rear, tagged and therefore it can not be used.

The only way a crew could claim you couldn't sit in the last car would be if there were a brake issue on that car. If this was the originating terminal for the train it would be leaving without 100% operable brakes. Soo...

If you think the only way a crew can claim you can't sit in the last car is if there is a brake issue, you should take a look at pages 113-117 in your air brake book (which is based upon the CFR. Image some of this happening at an initial terminal or a turnaround point where a new calendar day inspection is performed. There are exceptions for "en route" defects but these conditions at origination could cause a car to become non complying. Even if en route, if you are unable to comply with item 6 (3) on page 117 WILL disqualify that car from being used in passenger service. Depending on the equipment (especially an AM-2), you'll always see a car that fails to meet this criteria

(10) All end doors and side doors operate safely and as intended. A noncomplying car may continue in passenger service pursuant to paragraph (d) of this section -

(i) If at least one operative and accessible door is available on each side of the car; shopped out of line if possible.

When this happens at a turn around point, such cars are ROUTINELY tagged non complying, switched to the rear and hauled deadhead to the next repair facility since passengers are not allowed to occupy them.

Just recently, a repair couldn't be made to a car and they cut it from mid consist because of this provision:

(8) All trap doors safely operate and securely latch in place in both the up and down position. A non-complying car may continue in passenger service pursuant to paragraph (d) of this section, if the trap door can be secured by locking out the door for which it is used.

The other door was already tagged out so once the trap latch couldn't be repaired at an outlying point, it failed to meet part 10 since there were not operable doors on either side of that end of the coach.

As such Tadman, something as simple as not having an available fire extinguisher on a car can lead to a non complying condition, rendering the car defective and unusable.

It doesn't take much.

The phrase “by law” keeps coming back to me. Something that bad-orders a car but keeps it able to travel at track speed? A broken window or bad door maybe? HEP not working could be it too, though that wouldn’t be a “law” situation.

Someone gets it. the term that bad orders a car but allows it to operate at track speed is referred to as a non running gear defect. Cars can be shopped inline or out of line for such defects, but some of the defects do not allow for passenger use. Typically, you will not see cars with running gear defects in a live passenger train unless it happens en route and there is no quick way to set it out.