Railroad Forums 

  • Amtrak v. NS - Twitterwar

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1504632  by STrRedWolf
 
bostontrainguy wrote:Amtrak's tough response:

https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/do ... cle_inline" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Okay, Feb 16th tweet... complaint send on the 22nd by general counsel... Amtrak drops a small bomb of a response with some of the proof it has on March 6th... no response yet from NS?

...and if NS sues, Amtrak has a lot more evidence (and is probably monitoring rail radio traffic to boot) to prove their case, and sue for damages on top of that (proving those damages rather easily).

In other words, if NS sues, it's game over for NS.
 #1504639  by BandA
 
How much does Amtrak pay? And what is their "fair share"?

Imagine if you had 20 Amtrak trains per day per track and no other traffic (i.e. 20 round trips on a double-track, 10 round trips if single-tracked) would the line be profitable to the host railroad?
 #1504644  by Backshophoss
 
Does the NS DS have "orders" to get this train out ahead of Amtrak? This must be a "hot" intermodal that MUST be moving at a certain
time to deliver on time at destination?
The CSX/NS crossing in Atlanta is a constant nitemare,now tack on this train that is "hot" but gets power that prone to crap out
on a regular basis.
Something doesn't pass the smell test here!
 #1504676  by Tadman
 
BandA wrote:How much does Amtrak pay? And what is their "fair share"?

Imagine if you had 20 Amtrak trains per day per track and no other traffic (i.e. 20 round trips on a double-track, 10 round trips if single-tracked) would the line be profitable to the host railroad?
I've asked this quite a lot and it seems nobody has any answers. Given that the track owners are in the business of moving trains for money, I can only imagine there's a price that would make them happy to host Amtrak, and Amtrak is nowhere near that. This concept adds quite the twist to farebox recovery math, because the percentage Amtrak expresses now is not real. There's another subsidy component that comes indirectly from the host railroad.
 #1504679  by mtuandrew
 
For every “your trains clog our lines and wear our infrastructure” there’s a “your trains pollute our towns and have been getting government subsidies since the literal day you broke ground 150 years ago”, and so forth ad astra & ad nauseum. Such an answer is so hard to factually obtain, only the Supremes can really make a cost-sharing formula stick - maybe someday they’ll have to do so.

In the meantime, Amtrak’s at least dragging Norfolk Southern into the pit of public annoyance too.
 #1505178  by daybeers
 
Arborwayfan wrote:One further thought about Amtrak's own delays: At least at downstate Illinois stations in the last few years, they seem to check tickets on the platform a lot, ...
Yeah that's not good at all. They used to do this on the Springfield Line from New Haven, CT to Springfield, MA and it would always take forever! Please contact Customer Service and complain.
Tadman wrote:How can the organization have any credibility with NS when it's clear their own house is so far out of whack? How much do you want to bet when the annual grades for freight hosts come out, and Amtrak gives NS and "F", the NS managers have a good chuckle because they know Amtrak is a F-minus customer that doesn't pay their way, breaks down on the main, and publicly lambasts them.
Well NS is an F- company! I'd be willing to bet quite a bit of money their trains break down and interfere with Amtrak much more frequently than Amtrak breaks down and interferes with NS. I personally think whoever in Amtrak management decided to start naming the freight companies in their delay tweets is a genius: the court of public opinion is incredibly powerful.
Tadman wrote:
BandA wrote:How much does Amtrak pay? And what is their "fair share"?

Imagine if you had 20 Amtrak trains per day per track and no other traffic (i.e. 20 round trips on a double-track, 10 round trips if single-tracked) would the line be profitable to the host railroad?
I've asked this quite a lot and it seems nobody has any answers. Given that the track owners are in the business of moving trains for money, I can only imagine there's a price that would make them happy to host Amtrak, and Amtrak is nowhere near that. This concept adds quite the twist to farebox recovery math, because the percentage Amtrak expresses now is not real. There's another subsidy component that comes indirectly from the host railroad.
Why should Amtrak pay NS more if they delay their trains 30% more than the next-worst host railroad?!?

Also, that letter from Amtrak to NS was one of the greatest public corporate responses I've ever seen. Well done Amtrak!
 #1505185  by STrRedWolf
 
daybeers wrote:
Tadman wrote:How can the organization have any credibility with NS when it's clear their own house is so far out of whack? How much do you want to bet when the annual grades for freight hosts come out, and Amtrak gives NS and "F", the NS managers have a good chuckle because they know Amtrak is a F-minus customer that doesn't pay their way, breaks down on the main, and publicly lambasts them.
Well NS is an F- company! I'd be willing to bet quite a bit of money their trains break down and interfere with Amtrak much more frequently than Amtrak breaks down and interferes with NS. I personally think whoever in Amtrak management decided to start naming the freight companies in their delay tweets is a genius: the court of public opinion is incredibly powerful.
If I were a company dealing with NS for shipping products to the company's warehouses, and I was seeing this spat in the delivered copy of the Wall Street Journal, I would be looking both at Amtrak and NS...

And since Amtrak's been "naming and shaming," if there's a delay in shipping that NS is saying is Amtrak's fault, I would be saying to NS "Your simple explanation isn't going to fly anymore. Any delay in delivery now requires a root cause analysis, for each and every delay, with full tracking. Anything less is a contract violation, and our lawyers will be in contact."

It's brilliant on Amtrak, because not only you get public perception against NS, you also get corporate pressure.
 #1505226  by Tadman
 
daybeers wrote: Why should Amtrak pay NS more if they delay their trains 30% more than the next-worst host railroad?!?

Also, that letter from Amtrak to NS was one of the greatest public corporate responses I've ever seen. Well done Amtrak!
NS is a privately owned business. By law, they are responsible to their shareholders. The shareholders are not a few old rich white guys driving expensive cars and nailing 20-something supermodel on a yacht, they are funds. Insurance. 401k. Pensions. Universities. Institutions we all count on for education, healthcare, and retirement. If those investors don't make money, they go somewhere else.

Now, tell me why NS should short their investors (your healthcare and retirement accounts) by allowing Amtrak to pay rates that are well under market pricing.
 #1505229  by JoeBas
 
Tadman wrote:
daybeers wrote: Now, tell me why NS should short their investors (your healthcare and retirement accounts) by allowing Amtrak to pay rates that are well under market pricing.
They don't like it, they can go back to running their own passenger service themselves. See how that works out for their yacht-banging "investors". ;)
 #1505230  by WhartonAndNorthern
 
JoeBas wrote:
Tadman wrote:
daybeers wrote: Now, tell me why NS should short their investors (your healthcare and retirement accounts) by allowing Amtrak to pay rates that are well under market pricing.
They don't like it, they can go back to running their own passenger service themselves. See how that works out for their yacht-banging "investors". ;)
Exactly. The predecessor companies (both N&W and SOU as well as some of the Conrail roads that ended up under NS) made a deal (it may have been a "deal with the devil") to get passenger trains off their books. A deal's a deal.
 #1505237  by Gilbert B Norman
 
I've said it around here before and I'll say it again; The railroads joining Amtrak made a "Faustian pact with the Devil".

The "strongs" could have survived the statutory five year moratorium on train discontinuances, but the industry chose "solidarity" with the "weaks" and largely signed up.

Even if they did not get the LD's off during '76, they would have during '80 with enactment of the Staggers Act.

While likely some arrangement would have been made to continue the NEC (maybe along the lines of NSW TrainLink which is essentially a Sydney, NSW commuter operation that operates a skeleton Sydney-Melbourne, VIC, and Sydney-Brisbane QLD intercity services that Trip Advisor says to "stay off"), all would be gone. The West Coast services would never have had the mechanics to get up and running, and the LD's?; as many as there are in Mexico.
 #1505315  by SouthernRailway
 
As always, Mr. Norman makes a great point.

Norfolk Southern’s predecessor DID run its own passenger trains for years in the 1970s, to avoid being stuck with Amtrak. It joined Amtrak because the government required a passenger train to be run in the Crescent line and the train’s losses were too high to bear.

If the US public wants passenger trains in Norfolk Southern tracks, then the US public should pay NS the costs that NS incurs. It’s as simple as that. For the government to require someone to engage in a business but not be paid for it is institutionalized theft, and I don’t know many businesses in other industries that would stand for that.
 #1505318  by kitchin
 
If all the railroads have to abide by Amtrak's rules then it's a level playing field and they can raise freight rates as needed to maintain return to investors. The notion of "theft" is not so clear when we're talking about infrastructure that lays all over and along the the land we all live in, not to mention the history of how that right-of-way was acquired. As long as there is bright line law and it's fairly administered, the railroads should not have a veto on reasonable passenger service. Now that's a big "if," that it's fairly administered, and that it does not advantage other forms of transportation and their deals with the government, etc. (All transport has deals with the government, perhaps railroads the least.) Ironically since there are so few major rail companies, it would be somewhat easier to monitor such bright line rules, than it is, say, seaport public-private authorities, or airport ticket tax allocation, or varying trucker diesel taxes and tolls.

The middle ground between stifling government intrusion and your concept that they own it, and we pay what they ask or it's theft, would be how the states negotiate with the railroads to get increased passenger service. In other words, paying for upgrading the Acca freight yard to get more passengers on CSX in Virginia, and another infrastructure layout for NS to extend to Roanoke. The dollar amounts of those deals are a lot less clear in their fairness than just requiring the freights to prioritize Amtrak as rule, the same for all companies, with a rate that can litigated if necessary.
 #1505330  by JoeBas
 
SouthernRailway wrote:If the US public wants passenger trains in Norfolk Southern tracks, then the US public should pay NS the costs that NS incurs. It’s as simple as that. For the government to require someone to engage in a business but not be paid for it is institutionalized theft, and I don’t know many businesses in other industries that would stand for that.
Horse hockey.

If I give you a dollar, and then take $.10 back, I'm not "Stealing $.10 from you", and it's not "institutionalized theft".

The US government GRANTED the land that these entities run on in exchange for the public benefit they provided. I'll agree to your POV, when NS writes the US Treasury a check for the true value of all that property. In today's dollars, SVP.

Otherwise, NS can STFU and stop crying poor mouth just because they want to subsidize cost and privatize profit.
 #1505334  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Bas, I realize that various advocacy groups have pushed the argument you note regarding the several Land Grant Acts.

I'm unaware of any provisions within such requiring the recipient railroads to operate passenger trains into perpetuity. The only concession was to the Post Office, who could, if they chose, enjoy concessionary rates forever, but they have chosen not to.

Another concession was to the government to ship materiel, but after WWII, such was deemed to be "paid in full".