New Midwest/California Bi-Level Discussion

[mtuandrew]

I'm guessing this was a happy break (!) for a few states to get out without it being a legal mess. Let's face it, this shouldn't be a show stopper - the M8s failed their first crush test too and it wasn't a setback. NS is no dummy at building railcars, either.

Still, it seems odd. They have the Chargers, but now they want to low-key cancel their car order? It must be especially disheartening for Nippon Sharyo after putting forward the millions for the Rochelle factory, and for the people banking on those direct & indirect jobs.

Wonder if there'll be a new version of this order, whether renegotiated or rebid.

[CHTT1]

There's been no indication the order has been cancelled. There's been no indication of anything. The lack of public information on this issue is very disturbing.

[byte]

My paycheck is signed one of the entities involved with this order of cars (although I'm not in the same department and have no direct involvement). My limited understanding is that a), a method has been found to keep the funding "alive" after the approaching deadline, so b), the cars WILL eventually be built, but c), the builder itself may or may not be N-S, and finally d), procurement activities for these cars will be picking up once the new Charger locomotives are delivered and operating as expected.

If you live in the area and hear about a passenger rail outreach event being put on by one of the respective state DOTs, I would encourage you to attend and ask questions; the reason those folks are there is to answer them.

[bostontrainguy]

That's good news. These cars are needed.

[CHTT1]

Yes, very interesting. These cars are needed for the Midwest and Western corridors, and of course, will displace Horizons, Amfleets and Superliners for Amtrak to use elsewhere.

[bostontrainguy]

It has been previously reported that 130 new bi-level cars will replace 88 single level Amfleet and Horizon cars in the Midwest. The remaining 42 bi-levels will be added to the existing bi-level fleet in California.

Are there any existing Superliner equipped trains that will be converted over? What trains would be freeing Superliners for Amtrak service? Do you mean they will be replacing the Superliners that are being used in state service in California?

That would be great if that's the case. How many Superliners are actually being used in state service in California? I assume they are all coaches.

[mtuandrew]

It has been previously reported that 130 new bi-level cars will replace 88 single level Amfleet and Horizon cars in the Midwest. The remaining 42 bi-levels will be added to the existing bi-level fleet in California.

Are there any existing Superliner equipped trains that will be converted over? What trains would be freeing Superliners for Amtrak service? Do you mean they will be replacing the Superliners that are being used in state service in California?

That would be great if that's the case. How many Superliners are actually being used in state service in California? I assume they are all coaches.

From what I understand the only train regularly equipped with Superliners is the Pere Marquette, but Tadman would have to confirm that. Maybe the Texas Eagle has a CHI-STL section that could use S-IIIs instead of S-I/IIs; the Empire Builder sometimes has a CHI-MSP 807-808 section that could use them too.

Looks like there are seven California-rebuild Superliner Is, all coaches. They probably will continue in service. If anything, CalTrans will end the Horizon lease and relegate 5001-5014 (the Comet IBs) to special events and lease-outs.

[Woody]

I'm gonna guess that ... railcars you don't want anymore are really easy to pass on when they don't meet the spec, vs the political fallout from a Wisconsin-style wholesale canning of the project.

Nothing here makes sense. Either we don't have the whole story, or we're looking at it wrong. Pick one.

You have a point. Maybe the Midwest states are quietly postponing their service expansion? Illinois doesn't have the money, and neither the Wisconsin nor Michigan governments seem to be in spending moods.

Now Fellas, C'mon. You're letting your disappointment and pessimism run wild.

The State of Illinois has sunk roughly $1 Billion in federal funds, and some serious funds of its own, into new rails, new ties, new ballast, new culverts, new bridges, new sidings, new miles double-tracked, new signaling, new fencing, new upgraded grade crossings, and all new stations between St Louis and Joliet. The sooner the route has higher passenger counts and higher revenue, the happier everyone will be.

Likewise the State of Michigan used hundreds of millions of Stimulus funding to upgrade the Wolverines segment Kalamazoo-Dearborn to handle 110-mph running. They want to run it and have something to show for the efforts as soon as possible.

So no, any prospect of operations needing a few tens of millions a year in subsidies does not mean anybody is going to put a Billion or Two of newly built infrastructure on hold for a few years.

In fact, the forecasts have been very positive about the faster trains meaning more passengers and more revenue and therefore less subsidies.

Yeah, nothing here makes sense. Either we don't have the whole story, or we're looking at it wrong.

[Tadman]

From what I understand the only train regularly equipped with Superliners is the Pere Marquette, but Tadman would have to confirm that.

Sorta. The PM is a "whatever rolls" train. It seems like they use the superliners more and more, but I don't know that it is actual policy to use them. I've seen all kinds of consists, sometimes it looks more like a Downeaster than a Midwest train.

[Mackensen]

Bob Johnston has an article in the October 2017 Trains reviewing all the various projects funded by ARRA 2009 and how they fared. He faults Nippon Sharyo's lack of experience with crash energy management in the ultimate failure of the design, and Caltrans for not managing the project better. He also states unequivocally that the cars will not be built by Nippon Sharyo, but that Sumitomo, as prime contractor, is now looking for another carbuilder. The status of the ARRA funds is unclear. He also stated that the procurement guidelines were drafted in such a way as to exclude Alstom and Siemens. I don't know if that was discussed above, but I'd be curious to know more.

[Tadman]

Bob Johnston has an article in the October 2017 Trains reviewing all the various projects funded by ARRA 2009 and how they fared. He faults Nippon Sharyo's lack of experience with crash energy management in the ultimate failure of the design, and Caltrans for not managing the project better. He also states unequivocally that the cars will not be built by Nippon Sharyo, but that Sumitomo, as prime contractor, is now looking for another carbuilder. The status of the ARRA funds is unclear. He also stated that the procurement guidelines were drafted in such a way as to exclude Alstom and Siemens. I don't know if that was discussed above, but I'd be curious to know more.

Uh what a smelly rotten bad joke this is. How many holes you can poke in the whole scenario.

1. Who is going to sub contract this to Sumitomo? They own Nippon Sharyo and have built 500+ rail cars with them. You think if Chevy has a problem Ford would build a large order of cars for them? Boeing for Airbus.

2. Who has capacity to do this? CAF cant find their a** from a hole in the ground, Siemens is busy, someone is building M9's...

3. WTF with "can't manage management"??? We lose hundreds of people a year to grade crossing accidents, and maybe 250 people over the entire life of Amtrak due to train-on-train accidents. Why are we so fixated on a not-a-problem? Especially now that we have that magic pixie dust PTC which will protect us from all evils?

Hold on, we're going to lurch to another crisis momentarily. You can't make this stuff up.

The process of rolling stock procurement is like trying to convince a drunk he has a problem, and they disagree.

[Mackensen]

Bob Johnston has an article in the October 2017 Trains reviewing all the various projects funded by ARRA 2009 and how they fared. He faults Nippon Sharyo's lack of experience with crash energy management in the ultimate failure of the design, and Caltrans for not managing the project better. He also states unequivocally that the cars will not be built by Nippon Sharyo, but that Sumitomo, as prime contractor, is now looking for another carbuilder. The status of the ARRA funds is unclear. He also stated that the procurement guidelines were drafted in such a way as to exclude Alstom and Siemens. I don't know if that was discussed above, but I'd be curious to know more.

Uh what a smelly rotten bad joke this is. How many holes you can poke in the whole scenario.

1. Who is going to sub contract this to Sumitomo? They own Nippon Sharyo and have built 500+ rail cars with them. You think if Chevy has a problem Ford would build a large order of cars for them? Boeing for Airbus.

2. Who has capacity to do this? CAF cant find their a** from a hole in the ground, Siemens is busy, someone is building M9's...

3. WTF with "can't manage management"??? We lose hundreds of people a year to grade crossing accidents, and maybe 250 people over the entire life of Amtrak due to train-on-train accidents. Why are we so fixated on a not-a-problem? Especially now that we have that magic pixie dust PTC which will protect us from all evils?

Hold on, we're going to lurch to another crisis momentarily. You can't make this stuff up.

The process of rolling stock procurement is like trying to convince a drunk he has a problem, and they disagree.

Sumitomo doesn't own Nippon Sharyo; JR Central does. I have no idea what PTC has to do with any of this.

[OrangeGrove]

Bob Johnston has an article in the October 2017 Trains reviewing all the various projects funded by ARRA 2009 and how they fared. He faults Nippon Sharyo's lack of experience with crash energy management in the ultimate failure of the design, and Caltrans for not managing the project better. He also states unequivocally that the cars will not be built by Nippon Sharyo, but that Sumitomo, as prime contractor, is now looking for another carbuilder. The status of the ARRA funds is unclear. He also stated that the procurement guidelines were drafted in such a way as to exclude Alstom and Siemens. I don't know if that was discussed above, but I'd be curious to know more.

Thanks for posting. While this raises probably as many questions as it answers, it does begin to fill in a few gaps which haven't made sense.

One question which immediately springs to mind is that after Nippon-Sharyo's dramatic failure, which other carbuilder(s) are going to want to touch this contract specification with a 39-foot length of rail?

[bostontrainguy]

2. Who has capacity to do this? CAF cant find their a** from a hole in the ground, Siemens is busy, someone is building M9's...
.

CRRC?

http://www.masslive.com/business-news/i ... uctio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MisterUptempo]

CRRC?

http://www.masslive.com/business-news/i ... uctio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps. CRRC is also building a factory on the southeast side of Chicago, to produce CTA's new 7000-series L cars.

http://www.nextstopchicago.com/


img src - Chicago Tribune

Also, one other note. The Midwest Intercity Passenger Rail Commission made a presentation to Congressional staffers in May, 2017, in DC. In the presentation, found here - http://miprc.org/Portals/7/pdfs/MIPRC%2 ... 161342-390 - one slide addresses the bi-level situation.



img src - miprc.org

According to said slide, the bi-levels contract was awarded to N-S in 2012. It also says that delivery of new bi-levels is set to start in 2020. Does that mean that N-S will deliver them? Are the two statements placed together on the slide to allow the viewer to assume that N-S will produce them, though the slide doesn't actually state that?

Many of those who work on the MIPRC are employed by the state DOTs involved in the bi-level acquisition; some are also part of the NGEC.