Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

[BandA]

Is there room in the tunnels for redundant cables? I would imagine the train power cables, the cables supplying power to NJ through the tunnel, and pump power cables would all be large. Things like signal cables & lighting should be small-ish

Oh, and insulation thickness should be directly related to the voltage. How has the PRR/PC/Amtrak serviced those cables for the last 100 years? Are there manhole covers in the walkway?

[JamesRR]

There's no doubt something drastic will need to be done to rehabilitate the old tunnels, well before the new ones (if ever) are built.

Since a full shutdown of the old can't happen now while there's only two, they may need to do a "Canarsie tube" like version of a repair to keep the tunnels acceptable until a full rebuild can happen in the future. Mind you - it could be over a decade before new tunnels are done, at which point a 'band aid' repair job will need to be revisited.

[Jeff Smith]

Unlocked. Sorry.

[Ridgefielder]

As for the B&O/SIRT/now SIRY to the ferry slips at St George,everything east of Arington Yard to St George would need to be rebuilt,
and need the blessings from PANYNJ(AK Bridge) and MTA to run the service.

Yes, of course it would. I know the SIRY is severed from the national network right now. But we're talking about contingencies for an emergency situation here, where one or both of the tubes would have to be taken out of service. Would it cost money? Yes, of course. But would it cost $20bn? No way. And it's less pie-in-the-sky than some other ideas floating around out there.

Same goes for using the LV through Oak Island. Of course you'd need to build bypass tracks around the yard. But that's going to be a heck of a lot cheaper than building a new tunnel.

[mtuandrew]

Ridgefielder: what makes heavy rail on the SIRY a better option than rebuilding the SIRY as rapid transit to a big honkin’ park & ride at the Bayway foot of the Goethals Bridge, or building out a PATH spur from Journal Square to Secaucus, or running a dedicated bus bridge from Secaucus to NYP 24/7? Or, and bear with me, an “emergency” PATH route stuffed into one of the Lincoln Tunnel tubes?

[ExCon90]

A mammoth park-and-ride on the island plus the SIRY would avoid the problem of that single-track bridge over Arthur Kill, which would be a real choke point. Feeding passengers from Secaucus to PATH would overwhelm PATH, which is at or above capacity as it is. All suggestions about facilities in Jersey City still leave us with the need to get the passengers across the Hudson. At least the SIRY alternative puts them on the ferry at St. George, which would place a heavy burden on the ferries, but at least the SI ferries can receive and discharge throngs of passengers quickly and can really pack them in (which would be endurable for the 20-minute crossing), and most likely could be done without adding slips at St. G. and South Ferry. For that matter, tight overcrowding on SIRY would also be endurable for the relatively short time while providing breathing space during the transfer at St. G.

[troffey]

Is there room in the tunnels for redundant cables? I would imagine the train power cables, the cables supplying power to NJ through the tunnel, and pump power cables would all be large. Things like signal cables & lighting should be small-ish

Oh, and insulation thickness should be directly related to the voltage. How has the PRR/PC/Amtrak serviced those cables for the last 100 years? Are there manhole covers in the walkway?

For what it's worth, the insulation thickness of a cable hung on messenger wire or directly racked to the wall will be significantly thicker than if it was run in electrical conduit. That being said, it does offer flexibility in the cable's location in the tunnel that conduit does not.

I have no idea if there are manhole covers or such, but it also fairly likely that the current conduits are in the concrete slab and come above grade at cabinets or electrical panels, that the wires continue through and back down into another conduit run. One of the benefits to conduit over these cables is that you don't need access to the full length of the run.

[EuroStar]

Does anyone know how thick are the cables in tunnels used by the Europeans and the Japanese? Like for example how big are the cables in the Gotthard Base Tunnel? I found an admittedly not to scale diagram from the Eurotunnel and it seems to imply that they have two 20kV cables on the walls of each tunnel plus one 3.3kV and signaling wires all taking very little space on the wall. This would seem to imply that the space requirement is minor and that the cables can be bunched really close together. I do not know if this is possible only because the tunnels are cooled. Placing cables next to each other usually requires taking into account the heat generated by the currents flowing through them. Too many cables next to each other can overheat and melt/char the insulation. The graphics came from here in case anyone cares: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.eng.2018.03.004.

[east point]

Cables on racks? So whatever reason one cable starts smoking or worse becomes bare ? Then how are passenger especially large NJT ones going to walk by those problems? There are no cross connections between the old tunnels. That would not meet current fire codes if an upgrade was attempted! All these proposals seem to forget emergency problems !

[Ridgefielder]

Ridgefielder: what makes heavy rail on the SIRY a better option than rebuilding the SIRY as rapid transit to a big honkin’ park & ride at the Bayway foot of the Goethals Bridge,

The problem with a Park & Ride is that you'd be forcing the people currently taking the train to drive to it. It's not clear to me that the already-overburdened road network could handle that much more peak hour car traffic without massive and dangerous gridlock on SI. Look what happened to Fort Lee in the Bridgegate scandal back in 2013- closing two access lanes to the GW caused multi-hour delays. Remember, since 1990 the Five Boroughs have added a Dallas in population (+1.3MM) without constructing a single mile of new road.

Now that being said... what you COULD do is extend the SIRY as rapid transit all the way to Cranford on the Raritan Valley Line. Build a transfer station in Elizabeth where the B&O crosses the PRR and funnel traffic in off the North Jersey Coast Line and the NE Corridor.

or building out a PATH spur from Journal Square to Secaucus

The PATH is overcrowded as it is. Not sure there's room for many more people on those trains.

or running a dedicated bus bridge from Secaucus to NYP 24/7?

Once again, this gets back to the problem of the road network. Midtown traffic is already ridiculously bad; the State of NY is about to implement congestion pricing to try to deal with it. And then once you get to Manhattan, you face the problem of what to do with the buses. There's nowhere to park them, and putting them back out counter to traffic at rush hour will make things that much worse.

Or, and bear with me, an “emergency” PATH route stuffed into one of the Lincoln Tunnel tubes?

I take it you're not that familiar with the geography on the Jersey side of the river. The Lincoln Tunnel entrance is at the foot of a formation called the Palisades. This is a high, rocky ridge that starts in Jersey City and runs north along the river for 25 miles or so. The east side of the ridge is a cliff, which in Weehawken, at the tunnel portal, is about 200' tall. The highway descends this by means of a huge spiral loop, known locally as "The Helix." There's no way for a railroad to deal with it save by tunneling under from the west. And that's ignoring the question of what you do with your temporary PATH line once you get to the Manhattan side of the river. The area around the tunnel entrance is pretty built-up, as you can see. https://goo.gl/maps/86nMiRztGvq https://goo.gl/maps/JWTridxLDxy

[Greg Moore]

I have to agree (and also issues on the Manhattan side) but then I got thinking about the light-rail there.

You could do something wild like go under the Helix and into the right most tunnel.
Not very practical, but an interesting idea...

[ExCon90]

There were plans (decades ago, now, which came to nothing) to build a light-rail line in two dedicated lanes of 42nd St. A natural Manhattan access--just find some cheap land on the East Side for a few layup tracks ...

[troffey]

Cables on racks? So whatever reason one cable starts smoking or worse becomes bare ? Then how are passenger especially large NJT ones going to walk by those problems? There are no cross connections between the old tunnels. That would not meet current fire codes if an upgrade was attempted! All these proposals seem to forget emergency problems !

A properly selected, installed and maintained electrical installation will be perfectly safe regardless of if it is an exposed cable or conductors in conduit. The types of cables we are referring to are used in subway tunnels now, and I'm sure not all of them have cross passages either. Are there any emergency exits in the existing tunnels?

[east point]

The original tunnels were started by shafts at 11th ST in New York and Weehawken in New Jersey. Probably that would be the only location of emergency exits although all vertical. Now are they designated as emergency exits ? ? ? There are no cross passageways between the two bores. Suppose that the tubes are connected there. It may be actually easier for passenger evacuation at the tunnel bore faces at Penn station and in NJ unless a problem near the faces ?

The new tunnel bores will have cross passages every 800 feet to meet present day fire codes. Note: 800 feet just about 10 car lengths so a normal train would always stop at a cross section direct access to a train car.. That especially true for commuter cars with multiple doors and not so much for Amfleets.

[jamoldover]

You are incorrect regarding cross passages. Per my copy of Amtrak's Emergency Procedures For North River, East River, and Empire Tunnels (from 2011, but I don't think that much has changed since then), there are a total of 11 cross passages between the tunnels. Four were indicated as out of service (fire doors not operable), but the remaining seven were located at (from west to east):
MP 2.81
MP 2.58
MP 2.41
MP 2.06
MP 1.89
MP 1.82
** Weehawken Shaft is at MP 1.81
MP 0.66
** 11th Ave Shaft is at MP 0.64

While they may not be 800 feet apart, they certainly exist, and have since the tunnels were built. It's only the portion under the river where cross-passages don't exist.